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Engines Being Scrapped?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 69621, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. stan the man

    stan the man Member

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    Very well said.

    The cutting up of steam locos in the UK in the 21st century should not be tolerated.

    I would happily donate money to prevent this loco from being cut. Surely there must be a site where this engine could be stored and possibly used to promote the existance of the EOR. As a local person to Ongar I would be more than happy to paint and maintain the loco if a nearby site could be found.

    Stan
     
  2. TenWheeler

    TenWheeler New Member Account Suspended

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    30K - yeah, who's dreaming now?

    You'd be lucky to get a third of that, and then there's the costs of sale and demolition to subtract.

    Sounds like money is the main interest for you, but you must be out of your tree.
     
  3. TenWheeler

    TenWheeler New Member Account Suspended

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    Very well said again.
     
  4. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Dunno about the 30k as its a finger in the air figure. I do know that scrap cl47s are going for about 30k so maybe not that far out (though i will note that they will have a fair bit of copper in them).

    As noted a third of 30k is 10k. Woodhams were selling the last of their engines back in the 80's for more than that. Think my estimate is more realistic than yours. Get your wallet out and offer the owner 10k for it. Never know... better still offer him 10k and donate it to a museum of your choice. its just 10k y'know.

    Seems to go quiet when pound notes are mentioned on a personal basis. If you want it you go and buy it and stick it in your front garden. You seem to be great at telling others how to spend their money but don't seem willing to stump up the loot yourself.
     
  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    ...

    Just to clarify - is the owner looking at selling for scrap because he can't find somewhere to store the locomotive? Is that the reason behind the urgency of the sale, as opposed to because the railway want the space, and just because the railway want the space?

    I mean, if the option is actually to find a secure site until it gets a buyer, surely that is preferable?

    And even if it doesn't find a buyer as a singular locomotive - given they're not making them anymore (!) surely it would be more useful to a Finnish group as a source of spares, first and foremost?

    Seems a waste to just cut up a mostly complete locomotive when there may be other options available to it.
     
  6. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    It is ... and there aren't :(
    Its seems that no one wants it and no one wants it to be cut up ...
     
  7. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    "A duty of care is a legal obligation imposed on an individual requiring that they adhere to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others."
    How on earth can you bring DoC into it, is has absolutely no bearing on the keeping or otherwise of what is a foreign steam loco that is basically of scrap value and nothing else.
    Next thing it will infringe someone 'uman rights to scrap it..:frusty:
     
  8. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Now you mention it Ralph, my parents tell me that when a loco got scrapped at Barry in the 70s (probaly the standard or 38xx), I burst into tears...
     
  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I didn't quite mean it in a legal obligation sense, more a sense of duty.

    It seems hypocritical to make a fuss of the cutting of British built locomotive stock overseas and then do the same to someone else's heritage over here. That is my point. We should act, and treat artifacts in the same way we would hope, or want, ours to be treated.
     
  10. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Well in that case I don't feel so bad about it - that's more than the number of preserved Black 5s after all. Much as we might like to, we can't keep everything. Though, of course, if somebody were to actually step forward and offer it a home then I would be delighted to see its continued preservation.

    Now there's a good idea!
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But where do you draw the line? There are several British locos currently offered for sale but which apparently no-one wants: at least one Bulleid light pacific and at least two GW 28xx for starters. If those locos can't find buyers, it's unlikely a foreign engine on a non-standard gauge will find a buyer. If (apparently) no-one in Finland is willing to take it on, where at least it would be a practical proposition, then what are the options?

    Ultimately, not everything can be saved, and what is saved will depend partly on rarity and partly on practicality. Items go from common-place to rare to unique, and at some point along that spectrum become worth saving - or not. To take a modern-day example: would anyone object if a life-expired class 66 was chopped up? Unlikely. OK, what about 20 or so years from now, when they were being rapidly phased out (as steam was in the 1960s) and large numbers were going to scrapyards? Still unlikely. What about 30 years from now, when the number still left in scrapyards was getting quite small? Someone somewhere would probably agitate to save one, though quite likely they might buy two with the intention that one was restored and the other was a parts donor. What about 50 years from now, when the parts donor was just a worn out shell, but was one of only two class 66s still notionally preserved? Probably at that point, someone would try to restore it, even though it would be a massively uphill task. Now you could argue that we should never have let ourselves get into that position - but the alternative is to designate every single engine as significant and worth saving. Are you suggesting that the moment they go out of service, every one of several hundred class 66s should be preserved? Where would they all go? And more significantly, would the considerable resources needed to house and preserve them all mean that something else of much greater value actually rotted away due to simple lack of space, funds and people to work on it?

    In the end, there has to be a judgement based on rarity, significance, cost and usefulness. If infinite resources existed, then you could preserve everything (though you'd need a lot of space). But once space, human resources and cash are limited, you have to concentrate them on what is of most significance. Without knowing the history of this specific engine, I'd venture to suggest that if it has been offered in Finland with no apparent interest, the Finns at least have already given their opinion on that question.

    Tom
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Tom, I don't disagree with your view that "not everything can be saved"; it was more that "we" (using the term broadly) in the UK seem to be very intent on scrapping foreign locomotives straight away, but we leave those Barry wrecks and similar rusting wherever we can find the space for them. At the very least, members of the Barry Ten became sources of spare parts and haven't gone to waste - why should the fate of the Finnish engine absolutely must be scrap?

    There was public outcry and indignation at the scrapping of the Mackintosh 0-6-0 (brain working a little better in the memory department than earlier!) by the SCNB. How is this any different? There will be Finns somewhere who may want the locomotive, (if only for spares), and that surely is better than cutting up for scrap. It then does not completely go to waste.

    By all means, we can't save them all. That being the case, we shouldn't condemn the SCNB for their cutting up of the 0-6-0 whilst doing the same in our own back yard. "Do as we say, not do as we do" is the gist I am getting.
     
  13. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    What is the story on the pkp tkh's ?
    Do they need to be moved ?

    The tkh's are less powerful than an s100.

    a tkh is 17300lbs
    an s100 usatc tank is 21630lbs (wiki)

    So a tkh is a bit more powerful than a J72
     
  14. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    The difference is that the Mackintosh 0-6-0 was wanted and had people waiting with cash to buy it, but the powers that be preferred to sell it to a scrapper for one euro.
     
  15. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Said on Wiki? must be true!
     
  16. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Taken from jimkarpen.com

    Love wikipedia but beware of what you read. Above is one of the wiki-pranks...
     
  17. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Agreed wiki isn't a 100% accurate source

    Which is why I quoted my source.

    now ask yourself... If I had not quoted my source... Would you believe it to be true without question...?
    And secondly... Is wiki true about the TE of a usatc tank ?

    I believe the figures on the tkh... I've ridden them in Poland... They are not as strong as a Jinty or a pannier or a j94, not having see a USA tank since Bury in1991, and 5 minutes looking at the JZ import at mid hants a few years back I don't know.
     
  18. DJH

    DJH Member

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    Very much if I had the finance myself I'd know a decent home for one and it would fit right in.

    Would be a shame, given the apparent condition and potential usefulness, for it to be broken up.

    Have lines that have others of these engines been contacted? If nothing else than for a useful batch of spares.

    Duncan
     
  19. SR-Simon

    SR-Simon New Member

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    Unfortunately EOR is on a very space limited site, and does not have the room to continue to store the locomotive. At our own cost, it has been shunted around our site (including moving 5ft track panels in a scene like Wallace and Gromit!) and is now adjacent to the road so that it can be easily loaded. As highlighted by others, it has an asset value, and we would happily accept a sensible offer for this item, rather than see it scrapped.

    I understand that one interested party in the locomotive did find a site not too far away (south west of London) which would potentially be willing to house the Finnish loco and has got transport quotes. He may appreciate additional financial support (forming a consortium?). If you send me an email (via our website), I will forward it onto the gentleman concerned to put you in touch if that helps?

    I hope this demonstrates that EOR are not being callous towards this loco, but are faced with the stark realities. Scrapping is a last resort, and given this has been advertised for a few months, we are now having to face this...

    Simon, EOR
     
  20. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    To help anyone here who may be interested.. what's the deadline on this ?, does this need to be gone before the May opening for instance ?
     

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