7800 Manor Class

While probably not a rigid rule, I was more referring to the frames generally being the item that governed the loco's identity; I know there are some notable exceptions, but in the majority of circumstances it seems to be this way, as opposed to using other components.

 

me too

 

I think 4965 masquerading itself into preservation as 4983 Albert Hall is living proof of that...

How about the Black 5's, to speed overhauls, there were 2 more frames than there were class 5's..is it possible to identify which black 5 has which original frame ?

Who's knows the practice may still exist today in 70012.. I wonder which ID it will return from General Electirc as ?.. A new class 70, and leave a gap, or return as a new 70012 and show as a repair with new frames ?..the insurance company will probably decide.

 

I still contest that on the GWR in the 20thC ( I don't know about other lines) there was *no* item that governed the locomotive's identity when it was rebuilt or renewed. I'm convinced that's just an enthusiast's myth.

Look at some loco history...

Dukes given Bulldog boilers retained their identity until they were renumbered in a general renumbering

1 Duke was given frames from a Bulldog and retained its Duke identity, ~29 essentially similar Duke/Bulldog mergers were given new identities and considered new locomotives.

5 Stars had frame extensions welded on and Castle boilers cabs etc, and kept the same number, 10 Stars had the same job, were renumbered, kept the same name and were considered new.

54 42 and 52 class given extended frames and bunkers had new identities.

111 rebuilt as a Castle with major frame modifications kept the number but had a new name

15 large prairies had various mods and were given new numbers

10 2021 class were given increased brake power and renumbered

2021 class 2062 was rebuilt on the same frames as the prototype 5400 and renumbered 5400, but then scrapped and all the 5400 components put on a new set of frames still as 5400 and considered the same loco.

1 King was rebuilt after an accident with the same frames, name and number but considered a new locomotive... (according to Cook anyway)

And I bet if you went through the records thoroughly enough there would be cases of new frames put on locomotives when in the works for maintenance: its not as if GWR frames ( on some classes at least) were notoriously overbuilt...

 

Wild Swan Publications 'LMS Locomotive Profiles No.6' gives a list of Black 5 frame swaps. However, the authors state that the list is not necessarily definitive and there may have been others. Black 5 frames varied quite a lot over the years. The early ones had 1" frames, later batches had 1 1/16" and the last ones 1 1/8". There were also different wheelbases so they were far from being universally interchangeable. Frame swaps were confined to those built before 1938.

 

I was told a number of years ago that 45110 has Ivatt frames, this was about the time that 45000 was on the SVR and was apparently a rough rider, 45110 rode like a coach and the difference was about the frames, also 45110 has manganese steel liners.

Cheers Dave

 

Yeh I remember being told that aswell, 45000 was a much rougher ride than 45110, the back boxes especialy. 45000 always gave me the impression of being the stronger engine though