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Exmoor Associates - Acquisition of More of the Old L&B Line

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by TheEngineer, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    The best people don't find problems, they find solutions to problems
     
  2. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    Response to post 180 SirHandel

    Thank You Geoff, I don't dissagree with your views, your very descriptive and sensible in your comment. However I am "walking the street" and there are a few who do and have taken a pop at me since I started posting on Nat Pres over a year ago.

    I had a lot of my earlier posts removed, because of other peoples input , although in my oppinion they were just and accurate.

    This Thread is supposed to be a "NEWS" thread although its gone way off course "As usuall"...I don't object to this, "its fun" and sometimes very interesting, it opens our minds and often we learn about what we did not know!! , or others having oppinions, unless it starts to bring my credibility into question, I am trying to do a job.

    There are a few, who have done, and are continuing to question my validity, others are then effected by association to them.Martyn is engrosed in the current L&B operation, had it been Sheff or Yourself or maybe someone else I would not have reacted.

    I have time for those who have time for me.The old school L&B trying to build a project that struggled had time for me.

    The Directors of EA at present have time for me and I am happy to distribute NEWS, and work on projects and their assetts ( Land ) for what I percieve to be the "Greater Good".

    I am not here to fight or disturb the peace, but to deliver information in many forms , but I won't be walked over either.

    Going outside the box. We have debated on here lots of information that is not NEWS.

    Ellen Bee asked the question , "What is the point of aquiring land, that will never be used". Who knows it will never be used, purely one persons perception, all you readers have different takes on the end result and how to get there.

    I am an Engineer , I look at feasability , cost phisical obstructions , costing , source of materials, Availible resources. Always Cost, Cost, cost.. Return, Return.What IF.

    This thread will continue, it will bring news that will surprise some and worry others. I am not here to fail or mislead.

    I am an Engineer, they build most things in the modern and historic world. Everything around you has had input from an engineer in some way at some time.

    I was there to build the first one, and yea the product did not turn out too bad , Track specs ,rolling stock, Motive power, Sheds and accomodation, others did water supplies and signalling and operation. I am not claiming to have done it all but I was there mostly unseen. Many people were around all doing their bit , but I was in the neucleus of Specification & Procurment.( In the words of Doug , that might be difficult we have not got any money . Find a way of doing it that does not require money!!) "OK Doug" Ok John Ok Mike Ok Tony.

    Funny how there is an L&B Railway at Woody bay most of what you see, not all I admit , but all of the operation side was built pre 2005, how did we do it then with virtually no money?


    I am here to do this one, if the first one fails, and no one can write that possibility off..

    My view is EA's assetts will be used . Look to the future...... Consolidate Resserves when they are availible.....

    Plan "A" was completed, we exited, Plan "A" Anexed, Plan "B" & "C" & "D"were adjusted to suit objective.

    Plan "A" has consumed all its track stock and or sold off assetts ammassed under the regime of Plan "A" pre 2005, it now has no reserves and massive borrowing.

    EA has no plan other than to buy and hold land, but the drafts of Plan "B, C, D" if required in the event, are sat in store.

    EA has all its land reserves for building the L&B.

    Elsewhere more stock reserves, a completed, & operational steam locomotive, feasable operating company, its logistics men , Its financiers, designs and knowledge for stock and track, Pway equipment, relationships with suppliers maintained in good order.


    Maybe its just a case of turning the tap on ???

    Best Regards The Engineer
     
  3. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    We are drifting a bit away from the thread title. Whilst the accountant's head might say that anything South of Blackmoor Gate is a disaster, the enthusiast's heart yearns for whatever possible to be rebuilt. Lots of money will be needed and it's not clear yet where that is coming from. EA have their own fund and get on quietly with their work and are not causing grief, if the agreement is anything South of the resevoir is fair game for EA then there are no conflicts.

    For the operating line, looking just as an interested bystander would it not be best to make a series of bite size chunks that would develop the exisiting line? Going North requires going under a heavily trafficked main road (a big expenditure) and the land needs to be acquired. Going South the land is avilable and the line goes under a minor road. Do only I see it as logical to push South in easier to achieve (and finance) steps? By all means there must be an overall plan and direction but to think that all will happen at once in today's economic climate is perhaps very optimistic to say the least.

    The preservation movement seems to have morphed in to a grant dependent adolescent. Are there really no other ways of getting the job done other than paying contractors? Ways of getting a new bridge? TA/Army help?
     
  4. ellenbee pioneer

    ellenbee pioneer New Member

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    Martyn, Thanks for that! Good to see you're still plugging away - how's the modelling going? Yes, WB was a challenge as well as an opportunity, but it was the only main road accessible spot on the route, and Mike Buse played a blinder in bouncing the board into buying it. Interestingly enough, at the same time as we were being urged to buy Chelfham, Blackmoor was on the market for £200,000! But that was way beyond our means then, and it is remarkable, given the problems (the Section 106, that neighbour with her spurious claim) that it took less than a decade to relay track and start a service.

    To Chris's comment above, that the best people don't find problems, they find solutions to problems, well, whilst this may sound fine on the page of a diary or the back of a matchbox, in reality it is very hard to find solutions if there are people steadfastly creating more problems! In addition, you cannot even begin to address your problems unless you understand their extent - too many speak blithely about 'reopening the L&B' or running services Barnstaple to Lynton in the mistaken belief that it is as easy as ordering a pizza (did you want double Manning Wardle topping on that?!). It is not a question of 'mind over matter' as some correspondents seem to believe. Before you can apply yourself to the plan, it helps to first to acquire a workable plan, and that's the rub. I have yet to see a fully worked-out plan.

    As for the obstacles going forward, yes, they are immense, and I do not use that word lightly. Google Earth the route, or even better, visit it on foot. The Welsh Highland pre-1990 it ain't. I coined the phrase 'The Last Great Railway Adventure' (since bowdlerised by the L&B) because it is just that. Even
    Blackmoor - Lynton is a bigger task than reopening the Welsh Highland, fantastic acheivement though that was. Really, really, look at the state the route is in, and you will understand the immensity of the task. Look at what operating the route in its entirety and you will see that the income could never sustain the replacement infrastructure costs, let alone repay reconstruction.

    Then the personalities come into play. Everyone has a different idea of what L&B they want, which is why I suggest that EA could start a strictly heritage line from Barum, and the current operation could be run Welsh highland-style, with more modern equipment. Over to you, guys!
     
  5. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

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    Andy, thanks again for keeping us informed on the activities of EA, I like many other's do really appreciate your postings.

    A couple of observations first of all, I really hope this isn't taken as criticism. When Martyn asked about your position within EA I too was interested to hear the answer, not because I didn't believe you but because of being interested of how far up the decision tree you were. I.e. were you a key part of the negotiations or were you being a trusted spokesperson on behalf of EA. As an outsider I do not believe Martyn was trying to attack you and following the posts that have since been written I believe this has all been cleared up.

    Spud, again I dont mean to criticise, you are very enthusiastic and can be a little idealistic at times. As Ellenbee pioneer has mentioned unfortunately problems are not always at the control of those trying to solve them. Unfortunately there will always be problems of one kind or another and although you cando your best to cooperate and mitigate these it will always be the case of 'expect the unexpected' and its 'most likely going to take longer than you had hoped, or cost more, or both!'. All building projects (and I'm looking much wider than preserved railways) no matter the background seem to fit this criteria, admitidly some more than others.

    On the subject of people attacking you Andy, I am sure people are reading this thread to hear what knowledge you have to report about the current activities of EA, after all thats what the title of this thread says. I sure if people start trying to tear stripes off of you, then us mere bystanders will not be interested in what they say. As you have mentioned this has hapened in the past, things clearly have happened on the board of the L&B and level of outputs at WB will judge this. I must admit I would prefer that if there are any future attacks on you Andy, that you ignore these. I for one am not interested in these and i'm sure that goes for others reading here too. If I didn't believe what you were writing I would have lost interest in this thread alog time ago.

    Back on the subect of land, I was wondering what the positions with the stations are? Obviously both Woody Bay, Chelfam and now Snapper have been safe guarded for the future of the railway. I know that Lynton is in the hands of a supporter of the L&B, although it is very unlikely to see trains there again. Was it Bratton Flemming that came on the market fairly recently on what happened there?

    Another question, roughly how much of the L&B is in supporters hands in percentage terms? I guess there is 2 parts to this question, firstly land owned by the L&B or EA, and secondly land that will be made available to the cause for little or no money as and when is needed? I only mean in rough terms so do not expect an exact figure and appreciate that this may not be possible either. I would quite like to see a map showing this and perhaps this is something that EA may consider for their website, potentially with land owned by EA highlighted green, land owned by the L&B yellow and land available orange? I may myself be being a bit idealistic with the latter as this could hinder relations if errors are made or information disclosed that shouldn't be, I guess it could also highlight the importance of particular pieces of land that are not owned by allied forces and cause an increase in any price demanded, that said i'm sure owners are probably well aware of this anyway.

    Finally as a suggestion for the parcels of land that are being purchased, is there any chance of working with the local government and opening these up as potential walks in the near future before they can be turned back to raiway use? The aim of involving the council being to receive monies/grants to aid this work which could also act as prep work in the future for a return of the railway, such as repairs to bridges etc?

    Best Wishes

    Paul
     
  6. brmp201

    brmp201 Member

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    Hi Paul,

    Some of the information you are after is on the EA website. Take a look here for the latest, and here for the excellent scrolling map of the line, showing ownership.

    Regards,

    David
     
  7. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    With regards to what Paul said, what is the situation with Paracombe station? Paracombe to me seems the most logical next destination, rather then trying to get too far ahead. Finally having an actual destination to get off would be a valuable asset! Atleast then the L&B would actually feel like it "goes somewhere"
     
  8. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    To kempenfelt 82e

    I am not one for paranoia, deep investigation yes and knowing who i am looking for and how they aproach, but I am aware of who is about . I will continue to keep you all informed , I think the process of posting up is very worthwhile. The magazine is a very closed shop, as well as having a set view on EA.

    I have a lot of time for most of the readers and most posters , but some others do stick their heads up who I recognise straight away.

    Distributing detail through this forum is my prefered route,its not distorted by moderation. I post you all the information you ask questions I answer them.

    No bias view just the facts.

    You can all visit Exmoor Associates web site, and ask Nik questions also if you wish.


    You ask about Stations

    Lynton no way in the access has 6 houses in the way , requires new station at least 100 ft above the original and around the hillside toward the town so also 1/2 mile of new formation.

    Cafyns halt (middle of nowhere) no problem except to get there from Woody bay you need to buy 3 farms and pretty much obliterate them.

    Woody bay owned by the Trust I think could be CIC, deeds at the bank for security of loans.

    Going south Paracombe buy the house before the halt " Fairview" then buy the bungalow and demolish it and dig out the infill. about 15 feet down.

    Blackmoor gate ( Not going that far with the EE plan anyway). but is now a pub with developed outbuildings and a house cirica 1 million might get you it. EA owns the land from the station most of the way to the resovior.

    Bratton Flemming private house was for sale recently it was more than any of us wanted to pay and not really ideal for group ownership.

    Chelfham opwned by the railway trust or CIC. EA asked to exchange it but they refused and said it was not possible I suspect the bank have the deeds anyway, got to have something to safegaurd their loans.

    Snapper now owned by EA

    As ellenbee pioner has told you all, its a torturous route even if you own the land.

    Although it would appear more possible and more practical in the south than the north ( as developed back in the days of the Hole ground experience). In my oppinion after looking at all the obstacles and costs South may be the L&B's best possible chance.

    The Yeo valley is a very pleasant place with the river darting from side to side cattle grazing and the seasons and the road close by, the climb through the river valley and on to the side of the hill toward Chelfham and through woodland and on the steep hillside near chum hill and bratton, make an intersting possibility at probably more like a million a mile cost wise. ( built ). Charobin made this observation earlier in the thread.

    Obstacle TWA O still need to climb over that one.
     
  9. ellenbee pioneer

    ellenbee pioneer New Member

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    To add to TheEngineer's last - and I have no wish to douse his or any one else's parade on this - the southern option contains as much headaches as the north, though in a different form. For starters, where would you put your southern terminus? The local residents around (the aptly named) Hole Ground don't want a railway terminus accessed through their streets - they raised the petition that effectively stymied L&B version 5 back in June 1994. They are unlikely to have changed their minds since then. Pilton yard? Admittedly a good location within easy walking distance of Barnstaple town centre, currently a car park, the railway's spiritual home. Trouble is, the access to it has been choked by people extending their gardens across the trackbed, so unless hefty compensation was offered, the above would still apply.

    Going north from Hole Ground immediately north there is the missing weir bridge, but beyond it, though the scenery is pretty unexceptional, there are only the odd missing cattle creep before Snapper. beyond Snapper the scenery improves in proportion with the problems. There are two missing double-arched river bridges in about half-a-mile, and half-a-mile further on the remodelled crossing of the Bratton Fleming road at Skew Bridge. This bridge would be on a par with crossing the A39 at Woody Bay. Thereafter it's a pretty straightforward climb to Chelfham, currently owned by the CIC/L&B.

    So the problems of reconstruction from a Barnstaple terminus are probably equal to the section Caffyns-Parracombe Pixey Lane (East side of the Big Bank), but as TheEngineer correctly points out,
    nothing of the magnitude of re-engineering Dean Steep or Parracombe bank. However! The great prize of operating Blackmoor - Lynton (with a viable mechanical link into the town) is the potential operation of a very profitable park'n'ride, sparing motorists the drive down into the towns and the search for a car parking slot, and sparing the town lots of annoying cars whilst boosting tourism. Just think of the double-heading required in mid-summer! Garratts, even!

    Perhaps the time has come to cease attempting to impossibly square the circle and admit to two schemes. After all, isn't that what is already happening?
     
  10. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    .........

    Ellen bee

    I am not going into detail of feasability on here. Yes I acnowledge your observations Pilton Yards a no go, St Georges road is in the way.

    Closest you will get is raleigh weir cricket ground and no works terminus there, but maybe a very quaint style small version of Barnstaple town station with a footpath to St Georges road..

    As you travel north make solutions not problems. The solutions are there you just have to identify them.!!
     
  11. steamdream

    steamdream Member

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    If I read and understand correctly ,any hope of a total restoration of L§B is dashed for ever????!!!:frusty:
    regards
    noel
     
  12. ellenbee pioneer

    ellenbee pioneer New Member

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    Engineer,

    The south option (as you remember this was gone over ad nauseum pre-1994) suffers from two major problems, which would need some pretty impressive solutions! The first is the obligatory car park. Few today, especially the all-important families, would be prepared to trek by foot from Pilton (all supposing they could get a car parking slot) a quarter-mile or more to however quaint a mini-Barnstaple Town at Raleigh weir. And where would your stabling point be? The other problem is what attraction would you offer as your destination. Chelfham is pretty, but would offer nothing, ditto Bratton (which would require a new Lancey Brook viaduct plus a couple of road bridges). So why would you catch a train from a housing estate to...where?
    The modern tourist line needs enough car parking spaces (or cheap local alternative) to accomodate at least two return train loads, depending upon the service provided. People who can't park won't travel,
    simple as, you may remember I quizzed Clarence De La Cour at the 1992 Association AGM on this very issue, and he admitted that 62 spaces (funny how you remember all these details!) might not be enough outside the short term. I doubt if anything has changed since then. This is also potentially a problem for the current operation, which is why a park-and-ride could never operate out of Woody Bay.
    Lynton makes no sense without Blackmoor.

    Just one further point, shouldn't the L&B hierarchy be hosting these debates? Am I missing something?
     
  13. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    I don't think it is fair or wise to make this judgement however realistic the conclusion you have drawn might be. I am very much of that thought but even I could be wrong!!

    None of us know, from a financial point of view,at present, a full reconstruction would cost in excess of the numbers we can imagine.Even the sections we presently consider either in the North or South are beyond the funding limit.

    For what reason will it be built and does the funding stream , belong to that reason ??, these are key questions. If it is only a wish of a few then likely those few will fund what they can and that is what will result.



    For ellenbee. we don't have a forum any more at AGM's the 2 meetings are squeezed into an evening so that the old boy's don't come and because all those on the top table are Too busy in the daytime operating WB ( because people like me and those I associate with no longer go there or volunteer!!) Now we have an evening in October somewhere on exmoor where the attendance struggles to get into the 20's I expect it could be lower at the next one.

    So no debate about anything !! So we have the debate on here, good isn't it.

    At least we are free to voice our observations and views and debate them without being picked out !! And the debate is not restricted by a time, and only includes those who have a real interest. allowance.
     
  14. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    Nothing is impossible - as I said earlier, getting any track relaid on the L&B was said to be impossible - but some of it - particularly in Barnstaple - is VERY unlikely!!!:D
     
  15. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    This is not really to do with EA as a Business, but we seem to be into a debate, so please accept this as a view.

    The key question about the "Perchance its not dead" is this " can it really breath life into itself". We thought it could and in its first year or two it did, but by very tight financial control and lots of volunters doing what is now paid jobs.

    Where can an operation be built and more importantly where can it sustain operation.This experiment at WB to KL is proving the ballance is difficult and so fine to make it not a going concern.

    Presently the existing operation is loosing money, or at least has done for the last 3 years,its a dripping tap With small coaches and small engine its not holding its own.

    With bigger coaches and bigger engine, (that is not built yet) it cannot correct that ballance one thing is definate more fuel and more costs.

    Maybe if it was 8 miles BMG to Lynt, but I doubt it, and no one is going to spend £14 M to try the experiment. Look at holiday businesses in Devon and Cornwall to get your answer.Most of those are private businesses, using family resources of money and people.

    There is no investment. If the L&B project was a business open to public investment would you invest in it??.

    Probably seems good but when as with all investments you look at the books and the plan , do they convince you ??
     
  16. ellenbee pioneer

    ellenbee pioneer New Member

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    Part of the problem is the drastic change to Exmoor in the last twenty years. The abolition of the upland dairy farm support, the slump of the early nineties and foot-and-mouth have changed a predominantly local-centric society to one exposed to widespread second-homers and holiday lets. Probably the changing nature of tourism (less Butlins and B-and-Bs, more cottage renting and weekend hideaways) as well as milder winters and the influx of well-heeled migrants have skewed the priorities. There's a creeping suburbanisation taking place across the route, something, by comparison that hasn't happened in the Welsh Highland's environs. Putting it simply, the landscape has changed, and with it the character. Exmoor is now easily accessible by 4x4 at all times, and has lost much of its isolational charm because of it. Even Lynmouth no longer seems the place it was.
    So why spend tens of millions rebuilding all the L&B? What exactly would you be trying to recreate? How would you square replica trains with modern economics, or for that matter, modern standards of comfort? Who would have the time - or money - to take a return trip and spend a few hours in Lynmouth? It is notworthy that the Welsh Highland has this year addressed just that issue by promoting 'out by train, return by bus' tickets to cut down on journey time (and cost). As so well summed up in Brown, Prideaux & Radcliffe (sound like solicitors, don't they), most passengers used the 10.15 Ex Barnstaple, as any other return working didn't allow a day out in the twin towns, those wishing the full monty please take note. It's no use having two extremely-well patronised trains each way, and another five lightly used. Makes a mockery of the investment.

    Once again I must point out the two irrefutable problems for reopening the whole L&B: The huge cost of reconstruction; and the poor financial returns, though ironically, a lot of passengers would probably join at Blackmoor, thus negating the entire southern section.

    However, if you think you could rebuild, and then successfully operate a complete 19 mile L&B, then crack on!
     
  17. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    Many other projects were siad to be impossible:
    Duke of Gloucester, and its two missing cylinders
    Horsted Keynes - East Grinstead
    Robertsbridge - Bodiam.

    But they are happening, because people don't give up and take a long term view.

    That's why I became an EA shareholder... I like that sort of LT, patient vision.
     
  18. Cambrian55

    Cambrian55 Member Friend

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    Funnily enough if you live Birmingham and north L&B is a boring trek but WHR is on our doorstep, but of course you take a parochial attitude, everybody must live down south..
     
  19. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Member

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    Very true , people live all over, it was just a view point, from where I live which is Bristol, for me its 2 hrs to the L&B where as any railway in wales is 4 hours plus.

    I like Devon in preference to anywhere else, and there are not really any other NG railways down there, yes WSR, DVR, TSR but they are a totally different experience.

    So the L&B is fairly out on its own.
     
  20. ellenbee pioneer

    ellenbee pioneer New Member

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    Has anyone asked the questions, " If EA exist to support L&B future plans, but if those future plans do not include operations south of Wistlandpound, why are they buying that land?" and, "If EA exist in their own right, what is their purpose in tying up their money in land they do not intend to use themselves....or do they?"
     

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