insurance

do any of the members of this forum have the names of any reasonable insurers they use. we are currently looking into some policies but no harm in shopping around. we need to go for public liability and employers liability from what we've worked out as volunteers are categorised as unpaid employees so we are in fact an employee. we need some decent quotes as the one's we've had would just about wipe us out financially. we would prefer to pay by monthly direct debit but as has been the case with the quote we've had they outsource this to a 3rd party who whack a hefty great direct debit penalty cost onto the original quote. i know its asking a lot as insurance is never cheap but someone must have some contacts. richard

 

I might be wrong but I don't think that Employers liability would be worth anything to you. Your organisation is not an employer and an insurance co wouldn't pay out on a claim from a volunteer. You need seperate insurance for volunteers. Anybody able to give a definitive answer on this?

 

I have long wondered whether the various heritage lines could arrange a group insurance scheme if this is at all possible. I say this because a group of local small hauliers did such a thing. Their individual insurance was basically crippling them and by forming an association thereby reduced their premiums. I am also a member of a classic motorcycle club which has backing from the British Motorcyle Federation by contributing to this organisation. Only recently, an individual member was going to sue the club, somewhat erroneously I might add, which would have wrecked the club. With our club,s Federation membership we benefitted from a superior position and the individual rested his case.

 

For insurance for anything to do with Heritage Railways the first step is to talk to someone in the Insurance Business who understands what Heritage Railway means and what risks are involved. Unless that is done it is highly likely that the insurers will not know all the risks they are covering and that could cause severe problems in the event of an incident. Unless the insurance world has changed much since I set up British Rails first external insurance system in 1979, (I was a senior BR Accountant at the time), insurers will just not pay out on a risk they hadn't been told they were covering.

But other Heritage Railways must have gone this route before, so there must be expertise on the subject within the Heritage Railway Industry. Almost certainly via an Insurance Broker in some cases. So if the thread here doesn't give an insurance world contact I'd suggest ringing round the finance people of various Heritage Railways/Operations similar to your own. I say finance as those people will pay the premiums and even though they may not be involved in insurance they will know who is!

One thing is certain. If you have people working for/with you and members of the public visiting your premises/operations etc you must look on proper insurance as 100% essential.

 

just spoken to an insurance guy and to me it would seem the waters are muddied. we were initillay told we would need public liability and employers liability and now another broker has said we may only need public liability. from what i can make out it depends on the individula underwriter and how the define an employee/volunteer as some may state that they are one and the same and others recognise a volunteer is not renumerated. The HSE position on this also seems at odds with what we've been told and what we require. Its certainly is not very clear what we require so whenever you take out insurance be clear in what your buying

 

Take a look here:

http://www.heritagerailways.com/hra.html

They specifically mention insurance advice. I'd suggest you contact them.

 

i also ought to mention we are a not for profit company ltd by guarantee so this means that as we have directors we are classed as employers so would need employers liability (though the directors make no personal financial gain) yet the same insurer who states this was also at great pains to inform us that as we had NO paid employees only volunteers who came and gave their free time of their own choice and were NOT renumerated financially we had NO emplyees. as i said i think its down to the individual underwriter to decide how they cover volunteers/employees etc

 

I would endorse that suggestion from Steve very strongly.

 

This is helpful: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf. The best advice is (a) consult an expert insurance adviser (Broker - preferably a commercial Broker; the guy who just does your car and home insurance may not have a clue) (b) contact Insurance Advisers on other Heritage Railways to see who they use. To go direct to an insurance company you could try Travelers Insurance www.travelers.co.uk/ who handle all the insurances for at least one well known Heritage Railway and who do know what they are talking about. Any organisation which uses volunteers should, in my view, have Employers Liabillity Insurance as well as Public Liability Insurance. I write as a retired Chartered Insurance Practitioner.

John

 

Well, you've seen from the above posts that the waters are muddied. Talk to your broker but be wary that he makes his income from selling you insurance. You basically need to ask whether various scenarios are covered and go from there. It's easy to spend money on insurance which may, in the end, be worthless.

 

Both the HRA and MSLOA have fully developed insurance options available, through specialist brokers, for their members. As has already been suggested already any heritage group should start by talking to their relevant body.

Insurance, unfortunately, does not come cheap but using these facilities should ensure you have the correct policy for your group.

There was a very similar question asked on another forum recently and several replies suggested checking with the\HRA but, if I remember correctly, the group involved did not want to use them because they wanted cover for under 16's to do work for which they could not realistically get cover.

Before you even approach an insurance company you will need to have work out a 'risk assessment' and safety case and have drawn up a list of responsible officers to oversee all works. Any group will also need personal cover for the Directors/Principals should they face a claim, personally, from anyone injured (or worse while working on the project) or their relatives or estate.

Which brings me back to the point that the HRA have specialist officers to give help and advice and point you in the right direction (or the MSLOA if you are restoring a main line registered steam loco,) and this is where any group should start.

My advice comes from practical, personal experience!

 

There is lots of advice here but you will never know what a prospective insurer actually requires from you until you ask for a quote. I would suggest that you contact Derek Parry at Blue Fin insurance in York 01904 666900. He/they do a large proportion of the insurance in the preservation business including main line and are probably THE specialists, certainly Derek or Pam will be able to give you all the advice on what you actually need to be covered. Usual disclaimers, other than to say that they do our insurance at TYS.

Regards
bob

 

Thanks for all your help everyone. we are in the process of writing up health and safety policies for all the work we do, nominating pesponsible officers and introducing new working practices. I hasten to add that we have not had an accident and hence why we are doing this its just we realised that this really is the way to go and that preservation has moved on from the way it was donr 30 years ago. i would also add that despite us getting insurance this WILL wipe us out financially within 18 months as our monthly payments will be over £110 from the quote we have and our yearly rent is another significant 3 figure sum. there are difficult times ahead for anyone who needs insurance. and not just in preservation. i've heard of youth clubs and crown green bowling groups in our local area having to close due to insurance policies being so high. it would help if we could group together with other groups like ours based at our site but as we have no "insurable interest" we cant do it.

 

Whats the name of your organisation if you dont mind telling even by Pm i may be in the same situation soon and its going to be a learning curve

 

You should use an insurance broker. Rigton Insurance Services in Leeds have a specialist insurance scheme designed for heritage railways. Website is www.rigtoninsurance.co.uk. Hope this is of help to you.