North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Has 926 been out at all on test this week ahead of a return back to being available again?

 

It's winter maintenance usually starts in September.

Jon

 

But it's summer running hasn't started yet?

 

I'm told that the recent Thomas event 'covered its costs' and some 75% of visitors rated their experience as good. On the face of it and in isolation, that has to be good news. However, how the overall income compared with normal operations to Whitby, which were suspended, appear to be a closely guarded secret. there is aloso silence on why some 25% of visitors did not rate their experience as good. It would be good to have the full picture for a change.

 

The full picture - from the current management? Dream on.

Noel

 

Any mention of the figures for 60163? I understand loadings for some services have barely made it into double figures. Watching some of the videos and they look like ECS moves - one I saw the other day I thought was the stock coming in from the barn, but it was the 12.40 arrival at Pickering. Yet the following autocar services have been full and standing.

 

When I was at the booking office on Monday the general perception from the customers waiting to be served a ticket seemed to be that the didn't want to pay double for steam and flexibility/visiting Whitby.

To the majority of people and particularly those travelling at the moment 60163 is just another steam engine so doesn't really matter if it's that, 60103 or 2253, but naturally all three come with different running costs.

I personally didn't travel behind 60163 as I'd never been to Whitby before. It was my first time travelling on the NYMR and the relaitvely short turnaround times at Grosmont didn't give enough time for a day out.

I think they should have had the 60163 services advertised as a supplement on top of a Rover ticket - the revenue would have been lower but believe it would have had much more of an uptake.

 

I get a distinct sense that the Railway has lost its way in marketing terms - it is pressing the old buttons, but they aren't delivering the same results, and they are at a loss as to what to do. Tornado is a fine loco, but I suspect at this point its lost most of its allure: the "Top Gear" race that really put it in the public consciousness was 17 years ago. I suspect enthusiasts will turn out for it (though fewer than before now it is no longer new) but the "lets go to Whitby" market just want steam, they won't (in my view) pay a premium for specific locos.

Tom

 

What is the Tornado offer, not Whitby I assume, and what’s the premium vs Whitby?

 

As I read it than Tornado fare is cheaper than Whitby but £5.05 more than the comparable 3 station (as the railway calls it, 4 to me) return.
Of course my interpretation of the A Level Economics question of "Explain the NYMR fare logic" may be totally wrong.

 

I think the premium is £2.52 each way on a Grosmont return, which is a fixed non transferable trip. At £35, the Tornado fee is just £3.50 less than a full fare all line ticket to Whitby. That's £1.75 each way extra to go to Whitby.

Prices edited for accuracy

 

But the price is only part of the problem.

The Tornado fares are effectively an Advance Return ticket in typical rail format versus a walkup/anytime for the Rover. I don't actually think any TOCs retail Advance Returns - typically you'd buy two Advance singles choosing which train you want to go out and come back on.

The Tornado fares wed you to two trains - one out, and one back, that you must be on. Otherwise you need another ticket. This is extremely restrictive for the majority of people - most want to spend more time at their arrival station or break their journey. The Tornado fares don't offer these options. You can't even be on the earlier Tornado service and return on the later one.

In short - it works for cranks or people who know the line. However for those that are travelling as a one off or who want a day out rather than a few hours the Rover represents a much better option.

It will be quite easy for the railway to see how well they've done as they're standalone to the Rover fares so people will have paid separately for either.

Personally I feel that the pricing strategy is all wrong. I feel an upgrade on a single journey should have been offered as a bolt on to the Rover which I feel would have had a far better uptake than the approach considered.

 

When i was there on Thursday the Tornado service 5 coaches was about 50% full whereas the Whitby service 7 coaches i think, it was diesel hauled and standing room only, going on the Tornado service does not give you any time at Grosmont to visit the shed or take photos

 

Exactly, that's the problem with the model they've gone with. It's just too restrictive.

 

It is easy to point the blame at the marketing department for losing its way, but the CEO is a former marketing manager at the NYMR and should be expected to have a good knowledge of what works. As @Lineisclear used to point out in other contexts, there should be collective responsibility for what is looking increasingly like a string of failures - and that is not including missed opportunities such as the Pickering war weekend.

Someone, somewhere, in the PLC or Trust Boards must surely come to realise soon that "covering its costs" is not an acceptable or excusable result for any sort of special event, particularly one that displaces a potentially more lucrative form of regular traffic. Will whoever it it who realises that please stand up and say so!

 

We've been told many times earlier in this thread that people just don't want to travel behind diesel locomotives - they want steam. And yet it seems the steam train was half full but the diesel was more coaches and full to standing. That suggests to me that the presumption that people only want to travel behind steam is not actually the full story...

 

It's an interesting test of the relative attraction of price, flexibility, "rock star")) and destination - which may be unwelcome in a number of places, not just Park St

 

I think when they book they hope for steam. They also want Whitby.
They're putting up with diesel for the sake of the journey.

 

The full diesel-hauled train was leaving Pickering earlier, and running through to Whitby. The 60163 train was later and only going as far as Grosmont.
That may well be the difference! It isn't the whole story, though. If the NYMR abandoned running to Whitby, or even simply abandoned running steam there, would all that business evaporate, or could the marketing be adjusted to bring it back onto "internal" services? I hadn't realised, too, that the evening diners are no longer run. That seems unnatural to me, for most people, dressing and going out for a meal usually means an evening occasion - is this another area where the NYMR is missing out, and passenger numbers have fallen because daytime diners take up a path that would otherwise be occupied by a regular train that would offer more flexibility for regular visitors?

 

They do want to travel behind a steam locomotive but the lack of flexibility in the 60163 only fares, a return trip that doesn't amount to a full day out or offer Whitby as an option or a hefty premium close to a full line rover they'd have to pay to add this on top of a Rover if they wanted steam and flexibility is far too much.

Listening to people on the platform on Monday I got the view most were under the impression that the railway was subject to firecon restrictions and so were understanding of diesel use on that basis.

We know that isnt the case but if the general public believe that and are sympathetic to it then that's why they were accepting of the diesel haulage. It won't be because people don't have an issue with diesels being used over steam.