North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Rain is coming down stair rods so fingers crossed!

 

So why raise it? Setting policy based on something for which there's no evidence, and where plenty of data already exists for risk assessment, seems bizarre. If it does belong on a risk register (and I'm dubious), then that would be at low probability and I suspect medium impact, meaning it would probably be something where a mitigation strategy would be at most a borderline case. When there is evidence that the current approach to volunteering is undermining the ability to recruit volunteers to replace other volunteers, it seems a complete diversion.

No one is arguing that there should be no employees, or against the idea that the scale of some organisations may require a level of paid leadership. But the repeated introduction of hypothetical scenarios that all point in one direction undermines the credibility of what you say.

 

Only 926 in steam at Grosmont tonight, undergoing some percussive maintenance at 5pm. 37668 on shed ready for tomorrow morning. Sounded like 47077 left earlier. 31128 should've left on 17.45 to Pickering but I didn't bother checking if it actually did - whatever it was, it was EE powered. Both 5s dead in the shed, 9F in there too with 29. 63395 outside, also dead.

 

If I’m wrong it’s a matter of no consequence. If I’m right it could be very significant. We will have to wait and see but nothing posted on here is going to influence the situation one way or the other .

 

I don't quite understand why you say a volunteer has no contractual obligation. Yes they can walk away but until they do if your paperwork to sign them up is properly done then they domicile volunteering have an obligation. I volunteer at a Care Home, I have to sign paperwork and have health and safety briefing and to abide by it. I have to have training to use a wheelchair, I have to sign disclaimers where necessary to do certain things, I am expected to report any safeguarding issue (residents will actually confide in me issues which they wouldn't to staff etc.

 

This is where our positions differ materially. My fear, for volunteer reliant organisations generally and not just NYMR, is that volunteering will be discouraged and there will be excessive professionalism as a result. That risk - and if a risk is something that hasn't yet happened whereas an issue is something causing a problem, then I suspect actually an issue - to me is far more pressing than a hypothetical for which the apparent mitigation is to ramp up the professionalisation.

Earlier, you suggested that past volunteer experts might not be able to share their expertise today. I find that incredibly depressing, and a clear case of baby departing with bathwater.

 

To me at least, this looks like scaremongering. Surely the issues relating to operational staff at least are covered by ORR regulation, which overrides any insurance concerns? Is there any evidence at all showing reticence by insurance companies to cover operating railways subject to ORR surveillance? If it was to be a real issue then lines that have seen serious or fatal accidents ought to be trembling by now....

 

I think there are few situations in which employment provides a mitigation of risk that is more important to the insurer than evidence that individuals carrying out the role are competent. I can see though that there could be a view that particular roles need to be demonstrated to be being carried out, and that it might be more difficult to demonstrate that such role is being adequately discharged other than by an employed or contracted person. For example the role of Independent Engineer might conceivably fall into this category. I think these circumstances are pretty narrow though, and not generally an issue.

 

As a point of order railways don’t really operate under ORR oversight in that way, they don’t provide assurance and as such cannot be used as a means for an insurance company to judge risk. The responsibility for safe operation lies solely with the operator. The ORR is there to review whether or not the manner in which the railway is operated is generally in accordance with the appropriate legislation, to recommend best practice and investigate incidents. They have to power to require certain kinds of action and to prohibit operation where they believe this is necessary. I imagine an insurance company might look differently at the risk profile of a company that had been subject to a higher number of investigations or enforcement action, but they can’t use the ORR as any form of approval of the operation.

 

I think you’re confusing obligations you take on when you choose to volunteer with the obligation to volunteer at all or for a certain number of days for instance. If you are obliged to volunteer then that indicates that you are a worker or employee regardless of what you are called and however you and the organisation you work for regard the relationship.

 

All railways have to have a Safety Management System, and part of that system is to define formal accountability for various safety-critical parts of the business. You have on a few occasions mentioned that, apart from your NYMR commitments, you are a volunteer signalman at the GWSR, a line with very few paid staff. Moreover, those few paid staff are, as I understand it, primarily on the business management side of things, not the railway engineering / operating part.

So when you are sitting in your signal box in the Cotswolds, someone - presumably a volunteer - is accountable for the fact that you personally are adequately trained and competent to be a signalman. Someone else - presumably also a volunteer - is accountable that the signal box equipment you use is functional, and the locking has been correctly designed. Someone else is accountable for ensuring that the steam locomotive chuffing past your window has had an adequate programme of boiler inspections by people competent to perform them; that the wheel profiles are correct, that the rails are not worn, the bridges are of adequate strength and so on.

I wonder what your feeling is about all that? Would you feel more reassured if all those people were paid rather than volunteers?

This is not a dig at paid staff, and I have made the point myself that a straight comparison of wage bills, while ignoring other factors in the budget, is not necessarily an apples vs apples comparison. But every railway has to have people accountable for myriad safety-critical aspects of their operation, and has to set out who those people are set out in a named structure. Some railways manage that with paid staff and others with volunteers. In your model it seems you think they should be paid staff, and if the role is being done by a volunteer, they have become a de facto employee because they can't immediately walk away from the accountability. Yet at the same time, you spend pleasant weekends down in the Cotswolds!

Tom

 

But the point at discussion is not the obligation of an individual, but the trust that can be placed in that individual fulfilling a role.

I’m a church volunteer. To stay open, CofE parishes have a legal duty to fill certain posts, which can legally only be taken on by lay volunteers. That doesn’t turn those volunteers into workers, despite the obligations involved.

 

Last train from Whitby today at Pickering

 

I really don’t care when I volunteering as signalman whether whoever is accountable for safety is a volunteer or an employee. (For the record the operating manger is employed).Similarly whether mechanical or civil engineering expertise is provided by a volunteer or an employee doesn’t matter as long as it’s there when required. That’s the key point. A volunteer may well be accountable and ready to be involved whenever required but that’s entirely their choice. The railway can’t require them to be involved as it could with its employees. Whether someone is a volunteer or employee is far more nuanced than many realise. What they’re called , or what the parties intend may not be definitive. The key question is are they obliged to provide their services when the railway wants/ needs them? If they have taken on a role voluntarily they are accountable for it but if the railway can require them to perform the role and be accountable they're no longer volunteers

 

Not true. Your scaremongering can have an effect if people believe it.
I do a substantive job on a heritage railway. I do it voluntarily and, yes, I can simply walk away. Even if I was being paid I could simply walk away;. It doesn’t matter whether I have a contract or not, thee is nothing that can be done as even the simplest minded employer would be aware of the damage a disgruntled employee can do and wouldn’t try and get me to come back. Another scenario that I don’t want to contemplate is me passing away. It would have the same effect!
In reality you are just introducing red herrings to back up your arguments.

 

Some observations from me, catching up on 15+ pages of this thread after almost 3 weeks away:
1. Tornado - as stated elsewhere, hiring Tornado at short notice during a period where steam isn't guaranteed to be able to run due to the weather* seems a risky strategy. As does the fact that it seems to be running different diagrams each day, sometimes changed at short notice, so if anyone does want to travel to see it, there's no guarantee they'll get their ride. Assuming it came at a reduced cost due to a lack of other work, surely it would have been better to simply advertise that it's temporarily joining the operational steam fleet rather than trying to make it a bit of an event.

2. On the subject of hired locomotives, I do find it curious that of all the locos the NYMR has hired in this year either for special events or gala visitors which have then stayed on, only 37688 can work (or has worked) to Whitby. Presumably 60163's driving wheelbase is too long as per 60007.

From what I've observed, there's been fairly decent overall loco availability for internal services but some days Whitby services have been down to a single available loco. The addition of 37688 helps with this but I would for example be curious to know why 33202 has remained on the line (presumably at some cost to the NYMR - even if there's an agreement to store it for free, there'll be a hire cost to use it) with up to 5 other diesels available to cover internal diagrams. This coming from a 33 fan!

3. Re the article in the Yorkshire Post regarding the railway's intention to lean more on volunteers... it would seem from the comments wherever the article has been shared that those who are, or have previously been involved find this an interesting about-turn, with most under the impression that volunteers are seen by NYMR management as a necessary nuisance not a welcomed resource. To me, that speaks volumes and if I was considering volunteering I'd be thinking twice about it.

4. In a similar vein, it really does seem that that only people who actually have any faith in the CEO are the board.

5, Seven Marketing/Publicity staff AND an external marketing contractor? I may be mistaken but I think that's more than Northern Rail have... Does the CEO still contribute to the marketing effort too?


Let's simplify things: You're offering a ride behind a steam loco through some of the most beautiful countryside, from a pretty market town not all that far from York out to one of the most famous seaside towns in the UK. The marketing for this should be so easy. If your marketing staff are actually decent it should not take 7 of them to manage this.

incidentally, I was told recently that staff raised concerns about the new flower-type logo As seen on the Leaflet image a couple of pages back, Rightly pointing out that it’s nothing to do with a heritage railway. Apparently, they were told their opinions were invalid because the marketing contractors knew what they were doing…

6. Interesting comparisons between the NYMR and K&ESR approaches to volunteers. The only real criticisms I've seen of the KESR in terms fo volunteers is that they don't tend to advertise which locos are in service on any given day because things can change and there isn't always someone available who can update the website, social media etc if there is a change (as these are volunteer-run) - so they choose not to advertise it at all. How is it that even with all these paid staff the NYMR still can't get an updated loco roster right so often?

Finally... the Brecon Mountain Railway is a steam railway but it is absolutely NOT a heritage railway in its context in Wales - it does not represent any form of heritage there.

 

If as an employee you simply walk away you would normally forfeit any right to compensation. Similarly if you refuse to comply with a reasonable instruction from your employer. Those pressures do not apply to you as a volunteer. As you say you can simply walk away without because as a volunteer you have no contractual obligation. The ability of an employer to require an employee to do something or suffer financial disadvantage is a key differentiator from a volunteer.

 

1. Tornado: it had been pretty consistent on the diagrams for the days it has run, the internal services starting 10.55 ex Pickering (except the Friday a couple of Fridays ago when 44806 failed at short notice for the 9.20, so Tornado was swapped rather than cancelling that the 9.20: a diesel being hurriedly dispatched from Grosmont to pick up the 10.55). It will then do special runs in during the first half of September on the Thursday/ Fridays when the railway would otherwise have been shut.
2. Tornado cannot travel between Whitby and Grosmont, as there are too tight bends on the approach to Whitby given its 462 wheel arrangement. Only Eric, 825, the 31 and now Great Rock are authorised to run to Whitby. 806 has been fitted with the necessary kit but is still waiting for authorisation…. Re the 33 there is no cost to NYMR except the days it has run, which has been quite recently due to only one driver being passed out before.
3. There has been no about turn… and volunteers are always welcome. Don’t believe all you read.
4. There are a minority of people that don’t have faith in the CEO, including a couple from the parish. But I do!
5. Where do you get seven from? The “flower” is actually is actually of a driving wheel off a steam loco.
6. The roster is issued by the MPD each evening once they know what locos are available, and is then up loaded to the website each morning. But sometimes even then engines fail their FTRs on the morning so the roster then has to be updated