Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Essentially the maximum capacity of the line (in terms of paths) is to have four trains in circulation with more or less 35 - 40 minutes between them.

If you call those four paths A, B, C and D, then on a normal two train day, the service trains occupy A and C; and the dining train (Wealden Rambler on Saturday, Golden Arrow on Sunday) occupies parts of path D.

Were you to run a three service train timetable but also accommodate the dining services, then the service trains would occupy paths A, B and C and the dining train path D - the effect would be an unbalanced timetable, with the service trains having 40 minute gaps and then a 75 minute gap. That is before you consider that running a third train adds 50% to the loco and rolling stock mileage (= cost) without necessarily generating any additional revenue.

In terms of crewing, it is possible to do prep + 3 round trips + dispose within a single loco crew shift. We would normally have a third man rostered, so essentially the labour is split three ways. The Saturday and Sunday diagrams are slightly different; typically the "A" crew (i.e. the three trip crew) on a Saturday would need to shunt their stock at the end of the day to clear the platforms (so as to allow the evening Arrow to run), but then they don't dispose, handing over to the evening Golden Arrow crew instead. Whereas on Sunday it is normally "cut and run" with the stock on the last trip, leaving it in the platform and going straight on shed, but then you have to dispose. The times tend to work out fairly even - probably Sunday is slightly longer. The B turn crew have more shunting as their stock normally starts and finishes in the carriage shed, but they only have two trips to do, not three.

Tom

 

Maybe you could have 2 service trains doing the full length of the line and a 3rd a doing a shuttle service from Sheffield Park - Horstead Keynes? Hopefully the DEMU should give you another option for more service trains. Will it be based at East Grinstead?

 

2 train + shuttle from SP to HK is the normal service pattern for the model railway weekend. But fundamentally, outside of special events, more trains equals more cost and larger numbers of crews needed without necessarily generating more revenue. I’m sure if we got to a point where we routinely filled two trains to bursting, we’d devise a timetable to run three - but that would be a luxury problem to have.

As for the thumper, I don’t really know how best it could be used. There’s a lot of talk about early / late services, but that still adds to the crew problem (because it still represents a whole additional crew; the steam loco crew might get a later start if the thumper does the first train, but they are still up early to prepare their loco).

One thought I had would be to revert to running the steam part of the line as Sheffield Park - Kingscote, and use the thumper to run connecting Kingscote - East Grinstead shuttles. That way you could have a two train service at hourly frequency rather than the current 75 minutes; and a three trip day would be about an hour shorter for crews. The timetable always seemed to work better when we only went to Kingscote; and HK - where trains crossed - was bang in the middle.

Tom

 

Very unlikely to be based at Grinstead, there is nowhere to put it other than in the platform or the loop, which then blocks things up if you aren't using it that day...unless you laid another siding somewhere.

Potentially it could live at Kingscote if we emptied out the siding there, or even something built at West Hoathly has been mooted, but that seems pie in the sky.

 

It is difficult for me to actually say why but I have always felt that the best two iterations of the Bluebell were SP to HK and later SP to Kingscote. Whilst in no way knocking the achievement of getting to EG the railway seemed to lose some of its charm to me, despite the good climb to the summit it seems to have taken away the branch line feel, and yes I realise it always went there in BR days, but it is somewhat urban, and available space makes the station seem "temporary". And as you say it has impacted the timetable as well.

 

As someone who always accesses the Bluebell via East Grinstead, I'd be quite OK with a shuttle from there to a suitable point if it allowed an improved or more efficient timetable on the rest of the line.

 

I know what you mean. Personally I think is that SP to Kingscote is sort of a time capsule. Each station is a different era, but it feels quite otherworldly, cut off from modernity. The stations are works of art. East Grinstead doesn't feel any of that, the station has no old-world charm, and it comes across as almost utilitarian. I know and appreciate the effort that went in, the space available is extremely limited, and it is joyous to see the number of people who join at EG having previously been the only person on the bus connection to Kingscote, but it does feel like more could have been done or needs to be done to make EG "feel" like the Bluebell.

 

I think under the previous Chairman, there was suggestions that the Bluebell was looking into how to redevelop or improve the facilities at the Bluebell's station.

 

To be fair, it's only the final section of the extension - from the Hill Place overbridge to the new EG station - where the overall "time capsule" atmosphere suddenly gives way to modernity in the shape of new housing developments and then the less than historic atmosphere of the new station which, of course, backs on the the Sainsbury's car park. The stretch of line from Kingscote up to the Imberhorne lane overbridge has as much of a "time capsule" feel as anywhere else on the line and at least the viaduct offers some splendid views across to Ashdown Forest for anyone wishing to turn their eyes away from the new houses.

Maybe there are ways of giving the new station at EG a bit more character, but I agree that given the limited space available, it is never going to have the charm of the other three stations. Still, it does its job and I too was impressed by the number of people who joined the first southbound departure when I had a run behind 32424 recently.

 

Sir Nigel passing Leamland on its way home to Crewe this morning, taken while working with the Wednesday Lineside Gang (Northern).

 

What about fuelling?

 

So, out of interest, what are the turn lengths on a normal day?

 

The problem at EG is that it is a massively constrained site, and it is hard to see that ever changing. There is plenty of length, but no width - even the platform is narrow. It is near impossible to imagine that Sainsbury's would willingly give up some land to allow a more prepossessing station building; and at the south (viaduct) end, I believe Network Rail have a requirement to maintain access to their end of the connecting siding. So in footprint, it is a hard site to develop.

A longer canopy would be nice to protect passengers waiting for a train in poor weather, but I think the width of the platform would rule that out. There's been talk of an Odeon style building, but I think that is in the realms of significant external funding. We are due signals soon which will give a more railway-like feel, but sadly I think it will be a colour light starting signal, not a semaphore - which would be more visually imposing, IMHO.

Tom

 

The SP - KC timetable seemed to work really well and allowed hourly departures with two trains.

As I recall, it went something like:

SP Dep 11:00 HK arr 11:15 Deputy 11:17 Kingscote Arr 11:31
Kingscote Dep 11:55 HK Arr 12:08 Dep 12:20 SP Arr 12:35

That gave about 25 minutes at each end and 12 minutes at Horsted on the down train, while you waited to cross the up. The main difficulty was there wasn't much downtime, and if you needed to go into the loco yard in the middle of the day for servicing - not unusual with small locos - there wasn't much time. By contrast, with East Grinstead in the mix, you normally get about 20 minutes there and 40 minutes at Sheffield Park, which is less pressured.

On the current timetable, it takes 40 minutes for a train to depart Kingscote going north, run to East Grinstead and back to Kingscote. It is notable how many families get out at Kingscote and catch the same train back, 40 minutes being almost the perfect length of time to "do" Kingscote with young children. You get a break, an interesting station to look at, a little playground for toddlers, and the drama of the train departing / arriving, all of which you miss if you go to East Grinstead! Really from a visitor point of view, the sweep across the viaduct is dramatic, but it is mostly loco gricers that like hearing the engine really work on the climb up to Imberhorne: if I were advising a young family, I think I'd always suggest breaking the journey at Kingscote. It is really notable how much busier Kingscote can feel these days, especially on nice summer days.

Tom

 

Tom, just run steam SP-Kingscote? Oh dear, that would lose the wonderful climb to the summit between Kingscote and East Grinstead.

Is there any idea of when the Thumper could be back in service please? (With all the usual caveats).

Bryan

 

Out of interest, does the popularity of East Grinstead as a starting point massively shoot up during the beer festival due to people not wanting to drive, because it seemed very busy later on in the day when I was there for that weekend (in contrast to some of the comments I've seen saying it generally has rather disappointing usage)?

 

On the current duties, the Sunday A turn - prep, three trips, dispose - is the longest at 11.5 hours. That includes 1hr 15m between off shed and departure to give an hour of steam heating. The same duty in the non steam heat season would be about 45 minutes shorter, with thirty minutes between off shed and departure.

Tom

 

I'm sure there was an effect at the beer festival. It also seems to be busy at the enthusiast-led galas (Giants, Branch Line weekend etc) - probably a combination of having a clientele more minded to travel by rail, and drawing people from further afield.

Tom

 

Don't worry, there is no active consideration of that that I am aware of, it was simply my musing about one way you could find a valuable use for the thumper and at the same time rejig the timetable to give a busier service at the southern end of the line without needing more resources.

As for when it will be ready - no idea I'm afraid. The group overhauling it are very active: it isn't one of those slow burn projects, but there is a lot to do.

Tom