Tornado

105 - yes

 

82045 - Yes

 

Copper door joints still in use in 2017. A fine collection of used examples at Westerntor, HSB
Pat

 

So clearly new build rivetted boilers are still 'Acceptable Practice', maybe the 'Next' Tornado/Prince of Wales boiler should take that route, at present things have probably gone to far with the current boilers to not finish and use them. Hopefully in the not too distant future there will be suitable provision in Britain for rivetted pacific sized new builds and there will be no need to go abroad.

WRT @Eightpot's observation regarding the joint alignment, It must have been within the allowable tolerances in order to pass the required inspections. When working on original boilers I have seen some unbelievable amounts of caulking and fullering up, particularly from a well regarded road engine manufacturer from Norfolk. (worth remembering that most road engines rely on the boiler barrell/throatplate as a 'Chassis'

 

Not the only railway project over budget and late.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...s_email_2024-06-21&utm_term=ES_News_Daily_CDP

Of course that well known acronym for the manufacturer may be an issue as well.

 

Hopefully they have made the required allowance for expansion!

 

But, as the boilers anchored at the smokebox, that will move it further away from the wheels.

 

Yes, true. LOL.

As regards the steel versus copper question, was the decision for Meiningen and steel driven by delivery? I seem to remember that the price estimated for 4709's boiler (with copper firebox) was about £1/2m compared with £1m for both the two boilers for the A1 Trust. Likewise, the cost of the Patriot's boiler, which was made by the same supplier as would have been for 4709, was about £1/2m, or at least that was the appeal amount. Perhaps a copper firebox boiler would have cost little more than the current one and have spent more time in service, even allowing for the longer delivery time?

 

This locomotive has not been the same since the part fell off after it did it's 100 mile an hour job was more damage done than was disclosed at the time ?

 

AFAIR Meiningen ' dont do copper' . I dont remember whether the decision to go steel was done before the supplier was selected or as part of the selection process. My latest question is how much wind Tornado will lose when it eventually gets a new boiler with an approx 46ft grate. Dont expect it will make much difference in everyday running and i think the attempts to break records impetus has subsided somewhat.

 

A1 boilers had 2461 square feet evaporative on water side and that was more or less 2215 on fireside or ca 238 square meter.
Grate area before and after 5.37 and 4,94 square m.

Mr Giesel would then estimate max steady hourly steam production to original 16645kg and new to 15842 kg per hour.
Roughly 5%.

Power versus speed is a cube function so max speed for same train /new boiler will be roughly 1.15% less.

Same formula used on 219m2 and 4.43m2 for V2 gives 31727 lbs/h and Rugby measured 31000.
Formula OK.



Whom is to Blame?

 

So utterly irrelevant?

 

Whilst I realise that this is a discussion website and all are able to post their own opinions I think it is all too easy to criticise from the outside. Many hardworking people, both paid and volunteer, have spent thousands of hours trying to get Tornado overhauled and fitted with modern electronic control systems. It is a first for a main line engine and it has clearly been underestimated in terms of time, cost and complexity. Added to the boiler problem - coming on top of the aftermath of Covid, the setting up of the Darlington Works plus the P2 it is no surprise that the timescale has slipped.
The A1 team are to be congratulated on what they have achieved. I'm sure they have learnt many lessons and will go on to achieve great things in the future.

 

It's more a case that Meiningen is not certified for the rivetting of boilers, so copper is not an option. Continental owners with rivetted boilers have to find alternative repairers.

This is what I found from here:
https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/about-tornado/the-build/the-building-of-tornado

Under 1993:

"Meanwhile, Bob Meanley, a specialist in boiler design and project engineer working professionally on the design and construction of power stations, joined the engineering team. Best known for his work in the Birmingham Railway Museum where he was responsible for the design of the L&NWR Bloomer replica, Bob also designed the all-welded boiler for the Ffestiniog Railway’s new `double Fairlie’ David Lloyd George. Bob agreed to be in charge of redesigning the boiler of No. 60163 to an all-welded design with a steel firebox, in order to comply with modern safety and manufacturing standards as well as to reduce costs, weight and maintenance."

Apart from weight, all the above latter "advantages" are somewhat dubious, particularly the last one.

Also this from 2004:

"Boiler – 2004 saw the launch of the Trust’s £500,000 bond issue to finance the construction of the boiler and complete the locomotive. Following a very good initial response and uptake of bonds it was announced that the Trust had chosen Dampflokwerk Meiningen (Steam Locomotive Works Meiningen), a workshop of the Deutsche Bahn (the German Federal Railway) and through its subsidiary DB Fahrzeuginstandhaltung GmbH (DB Rolling Stock Maintenance Company), as the supplier for the boiler and associated equipment for the new locomotive. This decision came as the culmination of almost three years of exhaustive discussions with a number of possible suppliers in the UK and continental Europe as well as with the authorities on certification and quality matters. The final design would be classified Diagram 118a and would be coal-fired with a steel firebox and all-welded barrel. Meiningen would be able to design, build and fully certify the boiler to current EU safety standards and this homologation was an important factor in selecting the company for the boiler’s construction."

 

No one is criticising those who have put in all the effort, the failing is in the management or mismanagement of the project and not being honest about the true situation. Sympathy should be reserved for those organisations that have been let down and lost money and/or credibility with their customers

 

"homologation" this must qualify for the word-of-the-week !

 

Absolutely 100% that.

I am growing increasing weary listening to some of the apologists on here who appear to glean their insights purely from the Trust's official utterings (propaganda?) and who have no actual inside knowledge or practical experience of what's been going on over the last two and half years since the overhaul commenced (I would also assume that most don't have any skin in the game, be that financial or from grazed knuckles).

Please allow me to put forward what I believe is the real underlying cause of the endless delays.

A lack of funds, allied to weak project management.

Here's a key example. 6 months in to the overhaul, around the time the loco was scheduled to be back in traffic, and the Trust were advertising tours for that autumn (September iirc), the boiler and wheel sets were notably absent and the frames were still being stripped of pipework, oil, grease and ash, prior to defects being identified and a rectification plan agreed.

So no shortage of work, yet even though it was already glaringly apparent that the tour deadline was going to be missed by a large margin, there was but a single contract mechanical fitter working on the loco, with assistance from a Trust labourer. Meanwhile, incredibly, the Trust laid off their own two fitters.

All this lack of labour/urgency smacked of dwindling funds to me, and I do wonder if the glacial progress on the boilers came down to the same thing?

Fund raising and astute project management were the corner stones of the Trust’s success not so many years ago.

Something has gone badly awry.

 

Meanwhile, the Trust party’s on …..

https://mailchi.mp/a1steam/afcsigning-a1?e=412f4848b6