Isle of Wight Steam Railway

I think it is old ground, and not helped because inevitably the discussion comes across a hectoring about what happened in the past. There is never any consideration about how things might change in the future, or what the conditions for change would be.

Firstly, it should be remembered that the IoWSR is far from unique in operating solely with pre-nationalisation rolling stock ...



... though I suspect that it is the largest railway (in terms of passenger numbers and line length) to do so. There is also at least one other railway that has an operational fleet of pre-grouping vehicles that is as large. So while it is impressive, the claims to uniqueness from certain quarters across the Solent are not precisely true.

However, moving forward: We are where we are for reasons well explained by @Steve and others. Suppose a larger all-Mark 1 railway wished to transition to a more vintage future. How would they do it? In other words, berating lines for choices they made 20, 30, 40 years ago is a waste of time. What do they need to do to change in the future?

The first question would be period. Broadly, you could make one of three choices; they all have considerable hurdles to cross:

1. Victorian, which will primarily mean 4 wheelers
2. Pre-grouping 20th century, primarily bogie carriages
3. Post grouping (up to say 1951, i.e. including early BR-built, grouping-design) carriages

For the first group, there are considerable numbers of vehicles surviving, if you are prepared to wait until they become available, typically with redevelopment. You are inevitably going to have to source or make under frames. Entire new interiors would be needed, and likely significant body repairs depending on type. (For Southern examples, ex-LCDR carriages tend to have survived more structurally complete than ex-LBSCR ones, for example: they don't represent equivalent propositions in restoration terms).

Then there is the question of how you would use such a vehicle. If you reckoned 5 years as a reasonable time to restore (actually that is probably quite fast), then you either have an odd 4 wheeler on the back of a rake of Mark 1s, or have to wait 20 - 30 years before you have a viable set.

For the last group, numbers become a big issue. For example, taking the SR constituents, there appear to be only 21 surviving Maunsell carriages and 19 surviving Bulleids. I haven't looked at them closely to check the spread between brakes, first and thirds, but realistically that probably means you could form about 4 complete trains of SR-period vehicles across the whole country. There is a plan to form one of each on the Bluebell, which essentially means the capacity to run SR-period trains elsewhere in the country will likely max out at one other complete train of Maunsell vehicles; one of Bulleids and maybe the odd spare vehicle - even allowing for a degree of redistribution from current homes. I haven't checked but I suspect the story for the LMS, LNER and GWR is probably similar.

For most of those carriages you are going to have to construct new interiors from scratch as well as the external and under frame repairs. They do at least have the advantage (relative to four wheelers) that you can fairly easily introduce a vintage carriage into an otherwise all Mark 1 train, i.e. you get payback as soon as your first carriage is complete. They also fit the prevailing atmosphere of most heritage railways more easily in temporal terms.

For the middle group, i.e. the pre-grouping bogie carriages, things are even rarer. For example, I count 11 ex-SECR vehicles (most of which are brakes by virtue of those vehicles seeing further use as departmental); plus a couple of older LCDR vehicles. Nearly all of them are spread between just three railways: IoWSR, Bluebell and KESR. LBSCR is right out: there appear to be only 4 such vehicles, three of which are already running and the fourth is - while magnificent - hardly a practical day in, day out traffic vehicle. (The LBSCR Directors' Saloon). The LSWR has fared slightly better with about 14 vehicles preserved; this strikes me as perhaps the most propitious in that a plausible LSWR train of ironclad vehicles could be formed from those that survive. You'd lose the lovely salmon and chocolate livery, but heigh-ho, they'd look fantastic behind a Urie S15. But I think unless one or other of the MHR or Swanage steps up to the plate, I can't see it happening. Again, I suspect the picture is similar for other railways: this really is an underrepresented area in preservation.

The other big question is facilities. Any line thinking along the lines of restoring more vintage stock has to make a considerable investment in storage; workshop and skills. (Potentially the latter two could be outsourced, but inasmuch as loco restoration is a cottage industry, carriage restoration is even more so).

Are there any positives? I wonder if one issue will be the looming realisation that even Mark 1 carriages are no longer a cheap option. A worn but basically sound Mark 1 acquired in 1990 may now need, at commercial rates, a six figure investment to give it another thirty years of life - at which point the cost / benefit discussion changes. That seems to be what is driving a gradual shift in priorities on the Bluebell. Other lines with Mark 1s won't be immune to the same pressures.

I don't think we will ever get to a situation other than that Mark 1s are the predominant vehicles on most lines (and accepting that it won't be too long before even Mark 1s are 100 year old carriages ...) There aren't enough other vehicles in preservation for that not to be the case. What I think we might see though is a gradual flourishing of older vehicles - maybe not complete sets except on a few lines, but mixed rakes of say Mark 1s with a peppering of pre-nationalisation vehicles to suit. What might be interesting to view (following up a discussion on the Bluebell thread) is which way lines that currently have very little rolling stock jump: if you are rooting round looking at scrap Mark 1s because it is all that is affordable, it might as well be a scrap vintage coach: the restoration challenge is similar, but the outcome is potentially very different.

Tom

 

Lovely though it is I suggest that The Middy isnt exactly comparable with the bulk of heritage lines in terms of the size of its carriage fleet all three of them.

On another railway I did suggest a non corridor vehicle might be an idea but the response was that issues over communicating with passengers in an emergency would rule it out

 

I believe the idea was to use them as a short to medium term fix to create extra capacity. Longer term the plan was to remove the bodies and use the underframes to restore vintage coaches. Ultimately though as you say, they chose to restore 4 wheelers instead.

 

Indeed, I was just noting that the IoWSR isn't unique in that respect. Tanfield and I believe Foxfield are others that run exclusively vintage rolling stock, I believe.

I don't know the railway you were considering, but clearly non-corridor vehicles aren't an operational bar. There may be a local issue in that a railway's safety documentation may need to be updated to deal with them (for example, in issues such as detraining passengers during an emergency) but there is no particular reason why a railway can't run with solely non-corridor stock (as the IoWSR shows) or a mixture of corridor and non-corridor (as on the Bluebell).

That said, if I could wave a magic wand (not over either of the IoWSR or Bluebell) it would be to look at LSWR ironclads. Ignoring a grounded body at Havestreet and two nicely restored ones (off-railway one at Horsebridge and on a railway at Mangapps); and the ones under the ownership of the Titanic carriages project, you have:

• Brake 3rd corridor, Gwyndraeth, http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2612
• Brake 3rd corridor, Mid Hants, http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=319
  
• Corridor 3rd, converted to tool van, Battlefield, http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=365
• Corridor 3rd, Swanage, http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=308

There's the basis of a very nice heritage train project there ...

Tom

 

Isn't the Ironclad brake third at the Mid Hants a wreck? I'm sure when I passed it at the Spring Gala part of it collapsed?

 

Well I for one look forward to the day when the NYMR is able to run a non-corridor train consisting of the Thompson CL and two Hull & Barnsley bogie coaches!

 

Duplicate post by accident - deleted

 

Sadly I think yes

Tom

 

It was dismantled by the railway, because it was in danger of falling onto the track, but i understand, some parts of it are still sound, its not as bad as it looks it does have a future as part of the titanic project

 

Why do I get the feeling that the Titanic Project is about as realistic as the Night Owl (4709) scheme. As for a future, that is as likely as the liner itself reaching New York one day. Sorry to be so pessimistic but really................ Both schemes are pure fantasy.

Peter

 

It amazes me if people think this coach, and that dismantled 6 compartment Maunsell Brake Third on that line in the Purbecks, still have a future. considering the last SR third corridor which was at least still upright was send for scrap last year.

 

six, surely? Four on the Island, plus the first and the saloon at the Bluebell?

 

If anyone lives within striking distance of Goathland and has some time on their hands, I'm sure the Hull & Barnsley Stock Fund would welcome some help to make that day sooner... ;-)

But my apologies - what was the actual topic of this thread again?!

Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk

 

scratching the itch of @Paulthehitch….

 

Deleted

 

A quick head's up for the historically minded - there's a nice photo in the current issue of The Bluebell Times of O2 No. W22 at Smallbrook junction on this day in 1956 - see page 19.

https://www.bluebell-railway.com/bluebell-times/

Tom

 

41298 and 24 rather than 24 and 11 as per roster today .
Waggoner lit for tomorrow as per roster online .

 

I hope you are wearing the proper PPE for that job, i recommend full Hazchem @Paulthehitch, has had that itch for some time now, i think a course of anti biotics might be in order, and for some light relaxing reading material, I recommend, Bulleid Pacific's in the far west, and an pictorial history of the BR Mk1 catering cars built by BR

 

On the grounds of financial prudence alone both need to be eschewed by "heritage" line s.

 

PPE and antibiotics?...