Jacobite 2023

No. Credit to The Bash Mash.

 

Just a point of clarification. CET fitting is a network change and funded by Network Rail. Central Door Locking is funded by rolling stock owners or leasing companies. Both are safety requirements which have largely been introduced by rolling stock renewals. Charter train rolling stock forms a tiny element of the railway fleet of coaching stock. Being the odd exception it attracts attention by being non standard.
Cheers, Neil

 

Why is CDL not considered a network change though?

 

CDL is a legal requirement so, if you want to continue operating your trains you have to comply ( or get an exemption. ). The cost is your responsibility. CET is something that Network Rail have decided to insist upon. It is not law. If you’re running trains NR have an obligation to ensure that you can continue to run them because you have a legal right to do so and thus have to foot the bill. That obligation would not apply to any stock that was not registered and in general use at the time it became mandatory.

 

Cheers, that makes sense now.

 

How does a girder "plonked" outside suffer from metal fatigue?...I'm intrigued...
When I was an engineering apprentice....many years ago, the company used to store castings outside for months for stress relief. Nowadays it's done in ovens...check out the P2 fabricated cylinder block for instance .....

 

It suffers metal fatigue through fluctuating stresses when the coach is running on the railway. It suffers corrosion when it is outside in all weathers. Both to a greater or lesser extent depending on many variables.

 

Indeed, but the post suggested to me that a girder placed outside, not a coach part (chassis), suffered from fatigue. You meant the chassis, or part of, being subject to stress which I agree..

 

. Is fatigue and corrosion of Mk1 frames a problem, as distinct from the bodies? I’m not aware of it.
It only suffers fatigue failure if the fatigue reserve factor is less than one. If the design is satisfactory it will have an infinite fatigue life. I would think the variation in stress levels of the frames is not huge. As regards corrosion, the majority of the frames are protected by the body and the only corrosion will be passive corrosion which, in itself is protective of the parent metal. The external surface might be subject to active corrosion but would have to be left unpainted for a a good length of time.

 

As somebody who was booked on the Jacobite last week I was extremely disappointed, luckily for me however it was not the main focus of the trip, still managed to do the main aim of getting up Ben Nevis! Thank goodness ORR aren't involved in managing that, otherwise no doubt high viz jackets would be a requirement, fences would be erected along the entire path, and they probably wouldn't even let you stand at the top.

In all seriousness though, the ORR need to take a deep look at themselves, they have spoilt at least 10k summers for no reason, as far as we all know nobody has been injured on the runs this year. If that is the case, banning the Jacobite is out of order, and also while they allow WCRC to operate other stock in the same condition on other trips, at higher speeds. I thought H&S rules apply all the time not only where it is seen fit?

They want to focus on real H&S issues that affect everyday passengers.

 

The ORR will not wait for an incident to occur before taking action, they will take action as soon as they see an issue/risk that they feel could cause an accident. They won’t just say “Ah well nobody has been injured”. They will take a look at the saftey case WCRC have in place, and if it is not being adhered to they will act. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, it’s their signature on the line, and if something were to happen and the matter go to court it is the inspector that has signed that could face charges.

As far as I understand this, the big issue is that there isn’t enough stewards to man each door of the train and to control the passengers onboard. Therefore you get the issue of passengers being told to lock the doors themselves, passengers with their heads out of windows and nobody telling them to stop and the other safety risks the ORR identified not being properly controlled.

In contrast to that, take the Flying Scotsman centenary trip, which when it arrived at York the other week had a steward at every door without fail. It was properly managed, had enough staff to manage all the issues that the ORR said weren’t managed on the Jacobite.

When I travel with Saphos, not only is there a bar accross the window, but the stewards actively patrol to make sure people don’t have heads out. Or when traversing the Dawlish sea wall they will actively ensure camera phones aren’t stuck out of the windows, etc.

There will be a lot of anger about these cancellations but it is not the fault of the ORR as to why they have occurred. The ORR are their to ensure that the safety standards required are being met and if they are not it falls down to the operator. That would be no different if it was Saphos, Vintage Trains, LNER, TPE or any operator.

There does seem to be an overhanging cloud here over WCRC. Saphos have taken the lead with fitting their stock with the required CDL and saftey festures and seem to have little or no issue. There comes a time, and will in this case come a time, when WCRC must take the lead themselves and not look to blame everyone else. They must look at their own bsuiness and say we need to do XYZ to bring us in to line.

 

The ORR are to blame, they have come up with the rules that quite simply are OTT, as this train has ran safely for 40 years, and the last 20 of it in a Harry Potter world.

I would be interested to know if the NYMR have a steward at every door, they certainly didn't when I had my head out over NR metals in 2018, or Swanage on a 117 DMU? I would be amazed the amount of stewards would take up half the train!

 

@JBTEvans If you really believe this, then you have not been reading this thread. As has already been pointed out several times stewards on other WCRC operated charters are provided by the tour promoter e.g. RTC. In the case of the Jacobite WCRC are the TOC and the promoter and presumably (from the ORR's actions)they do not have nearly enough (or any?) stewards on board the Jacobite to comply with ORR's requirements. I would not imagine that WCRC's rather tin-eared press release saying that the cancellations were "completely beyond their control" (which is demonstrably untrue) much endeared them to ORR either?

 

The Dalesman and Scarborough Spas are run and promoted by WCRC.

 

Aand ridiculous comment of the day goes to @JBTEvans

WCR have backed themselves into a corner.

They were operating under their risk assessment, which they, themselves failed to comply with.

The regulator has audited and identified problems, and as is THEIR JOB taken action.

Chris

 

Again you assume the operating licence and safety case is the same for the NYMR and Swanage, as it is for the Jacobite? More than likely it isn’t because there will be different factors. Same as at the SVR, where I volunteer, we have different safety cases for operating different types of train.

The ORR have a job to do. And that job is to ensure that the safety case and relevant standards are being upheld for the operation they are inspecting. They won’t give a thought to what any other Tom, Dick and Harry are doing and what their safety case is, they will be focussed on the case relevant to the inspection they are undertaking at the time.

Ultimately the blame lies with the operator. And that is the case in any railway operation. If Network Rail don’t repair the track correctly and an LNER train derails, the operator of the track work (Network Rail!) get the blame! They haven’t done what they were supposed to do……

And guess what based on the reports nor have WCRC! Yet the ORR have done their job!