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Locomotive Performance and Tractive Effort Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MellishR, Nov 26, 2022.

  1. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    The requirement, as on most French main lines, was to run at 120kph on level ground, but in this case with an 800 ton train. 242A1 was essentially a new locomotive with the requirement to re-use as many of the parts of the "rebuilt" locomotive as possible. The new boiler was built twice over because of an air raid on the works at Sotteville. It was to serve as the prototype for Chapelon's new series of post-war locomotives, using standard components where possible.

    Chapelon Series.jpg

    It is, to this day I think, the most powerful locomotive to run in Europe. The machine had been placed on the list of machines to be preserved as a priority by Michel Doerr, founder of the French railway museum then under development. Some at SNCF (ex-PLM) had other ideas!

    242A1.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thank you - but not entirely the answer to my question on the comparison between the two.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    It's obviously impossible to say conclusively, but no other Chapelon locomotive suffered from weak frames and most, if not all, were used intensively. Not as intensive as the Niagaras, which involved heroic personnel entering the firebox in asbestos suits! The 241Ps did have weak frames but Chapelon's input was minimal.
     
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  4. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    According to Wikipedia, for the following reason: "The reason that none of the NYC Niagara locomotives survive in preservation today is due to the total pro-scrapping mentality of then-NYC President Alfred E. Perlman, who similarly ordered that every NYC Hudson be scrapped. (Two New York Central 4-8-2 Mohawks, L2d #2933 and L3a #3001, managed to survive by lucky flukes.) As the NYC gained less than $15,000 in scrap value from Luria Brothers for each Niagara,[6] which cost about $248,000 each in 1945, this "leadership" was and is an enormous historic-preservation tragedy and outrage."

    Much the same as for 242A1.
     
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  5. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Two potential new build projects to my wish list then... ;) Many thanks for your information RAB3L!

    Knut
     
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  6. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    Alas, I am not sure that there are any drawings remaining for 242A1 (or any other French locomotive). I have asked several times on French forums if there are any drawings but without a positive reply. I'm sure that some at SNCF (ex-PLM) would have done a thorough job, particularly for Chapelon's locomotives. One thing we should be grateful for the NRM for! The situation may be better for (some at least) US locomotives judging by one new project.

    For the French, building a new steam locomotive is beyond reality. Even some repairs that we would regard as straightforward are deemed impossible. I can think of one locomotive now preserved in Carnoules in Provence that was originally listed for Mulhouse. To prevent it steaming, it had its dome torched!
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2022
  7. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    Well used to the scales for model railways being anywhere between 10mm and 2mm to the foot. So perfectly content for mixed units

    Really no problem since the pocket calculator - given that you can quickly and reliably produce the conversion factors.
     
  8. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    Yes, it's remarkable that the PO supplied le Nord and l'Est with their rebuilt locomotives before nationalisation! A bit like the GWR supplying Castles to the LMS!
     
  9. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Could these two drawings be of interest for you?
    20221216_10513107.jpg 20221216_10550173.jpg

    Knut:)
     
  10. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    That's a start Knut! Might need a few more!
     
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  11. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    Vauxhall Omega -- a 3.2L was available . i had one and a fearsome beast it was . i used to hang a boat on the back of mine and the Omega never seemed to notice . top speed was limited to 154 mph (not in GB of course).
     
  12. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    The progress on 231E41 should cheer you up, things are moving along quite nicely at Saint Pierre de Corps on Rue de la Pichotiere. A torched dome shouldn't stop the enthusiasts over there now, they have moved on very much as we did but not quite so far. Yet.
     
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  13. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    You also have to remember the quality of French feedwater because TIA was in use from 1941 and this in turn allowed the French to close many boiler repair facilities. They were no longer needed. There is more than one way to skin the proverbial. The 240P was a better engine than the 241P but, hey, politics.
    If 242A1 had been worked up to being a production machine as opposed to an experimental prototype I suspect that we would be looking at a slightly heavier and more powerful machine including the benefit of mechanical and thermodynamic improvements. A 6,000 hp locomotive which was capable of further development in light of work carried out from the late 1940s onwards. You can blame a certain Argentinian gentleman for that.
     
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  14. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Years ago the company I worked for needed a new van and somehow our regular driver persuaded the decision makers to buy the most powerful available. We frequently ran with a full load but this vehicle never had to work hard and it proved to be very economical, superior to the mid power vehicles we ran. The only downside could be the tyres, it needed Michelins which lasted really well. You soon regretted fitting any alternative it was just throwing money away and that was done only the once. What a disaster.
     
  15. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    I haven't seen any ambition in France to build anything new. Serious boiler repairs are done by CITEV but they also use an Italian company. Wheels always seem to be repaired at Meiningen. Money is also a problem - you hardly ever see a French steam special with more than about six coaches; you wonder how they make any profit. Some 141R specials have been cancelled this year because of the cost of fuel oil. Not really comparable to the UK.
     
  16. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    It took decades in this country before we seriously began to consider building something new and the French do not appear to have the same "men building things in sheds" mentality that we have benefited from here. It is joked that if the World says that something cannot be built there is always some British man working in a shed who can work out how to do it. Strangely this feature, some may call it a peculiarity, has served us rather well in time of need. The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare provides a clue.
     
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  17. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Agree with you 242A1. There is much positive and exciting going on in France. They have also a really good progress on the restoration of the mighty 241p9!:Happy: It will be a fantastic sight! Thumbs up for them!

    Knut:)
     
  18. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    Yes, but everything they have restored/are restoring was complete. 241P9 arrived in Guitres in steam; Chapelon was there on its arrival. It was then stored under cover. Similar for 231E41 (but no cover). 231C78 has been under restoration for nearly 30 years, for lack of money. Where will 241P9 be kept once restored? As it stands, out in the open, like the 141R based in Toulouse.
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That looks like a fine prospectus for a new build. Able to haul lots of coaches full of paying passengers and to run in many countries.
     
  20. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    You have to remember that you are dealing with the French. They had many good engineers but everything stops for lunch and not just for an hour. And then you have Henry IV and " a chicken in the pot on a Sunday for every peasant". Did the King actually say this? We don't know but the concept of every citizen being entitled to good food courtesy of a Royal edict has certainly lodged in the culture. Maybe that is why what are considered outlandish firing rates on locomotives by outsiders looking in are in fact quite reasonable. Everything performs better with better fuel!
     
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