If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Ten for the National Collection?

الموضوع في 'Steam Traction' بواسطة Jimc, بتاريخ ‏24 اكتوبر 2022.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 سبتمبر 2005
    المشاركات:
    4,153
    عدد المعجبين:
    4,898
    الوظيفة:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    مكان الإقامة:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
     
    Jamessquared و S.A.C. Martin معجبون بهذا.
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏31 أوت 2010
    المشاركات:
    5,621
    عدد المعجبين:
    9,462
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    مكان الإقامة:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    My list takes item from across the Science Museum group, to create a list of ten locomotives that I feel are representative of their eras, iconic, specific to a purpose (goods, express, etc), show development of the steam locomotive and to try and represent as many of the grouping and pre-grouping companies as possible, rounded off with British Railways. Have at it.

    1. Puffing Billy.
    2. Rocket, original.
    3. Coppernob.
    4. 1001 Class.
    5. Midland Spinner.
    6. Woolmer.
    7. Lode Star.
    8. G2a.
    9. Mallard.
    10. Ellerman Lines.
     
    أعجب بهذه المشاركة Martin Perry
  3. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 سبتمبر 2005
    المشاركات:
    4,153
    عدد المعجبين:
    4,898
    الوظيفة:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    مكان الإقامة:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Stolen from the GWS website, here is how the National collection was planned to look like before the heritage movement got going.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏31 ديسمبر 2014
    المشاركات:
    589
    عدد المعجبين:
    1,170
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    1. Puffing Billy
    2. Rocket (original)
    3. Hardwicke
    4. Midland Spinner
    5. Butler Henderson
    6. Lode Star
    7. Ellerman Lines
    8. Mallard
    9. Gordon
    10. Evening Star

    I'd go as far as saying if it was only 1, and all the others were to be scrapped, then I'd keep #7, purely because it communicates to the largest possible audience, regardless of levels of technical and academic education, what these things were and how they worked.
     
    AMP, S.A.C. Martin و 35B معجبون بهذا.
  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2017
    المشاركات:
    12,172
    عدد المعجبين:
    11,498
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Retired
    مكان الإقامة:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Is Gladstone now property of the National Collection, or on permanent loan from the Stephenson Locomotive Society?

    Edit: Nobody mentioned Tiny .... the only genuine British 7'-0¼" gauge loco left and you lot would see it go to the knackers yard. Shame on the lot of you! *


    * ;)
     
    Last edited: ‏24 اكتوبر 2022
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏18 جوان 2011
    المشاركات:
    30,856
    عدد المعجبين:
    32,453
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    مكان الإقامة:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My list, with reasoning, again all drawn from NRM collections. Choices are to some extent personal, but I've tried to spread across a number of traditions rather than focusing on a single evolutionary line.

    1. Puffing Billy - the oldest
    2. Rocket (original) - the first modern form steam locomotive
    3. North Star - representative of Broad Gauge
    4. Hardwicke - representative of 19th century locomotive design
    5. 245 - representative of small-medium tank engine designs used nationally
    6. "Lode Star" - representative of Churchward revolution and express passenger evolution
    7. 63601 - representative of the early 20th century 2-8-0
    8. 5000 - Mid 20th century mixed traffic, highlighting the growing ability for one type to cover multiple duties
    9. Mallard - Covers the Gresley designs, and the ultimate express passenger locomotive.
    10. Evening Star - the last built, to compared to Puffing Billy as the first. Also serves for the BR Standards

    Thinking of this list, I'm very conscious of how much is missing, and how much shading in would be required between the different design patterns and principles.
     
    ilvaporista و S.A.C. Martin معجبون بهذا.
  7. Fireline

    Fireline Well-Known Member

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏11 فبراير 2008
    المشاركات:
    1,390
    عدد المعجبين:
    1,603
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I hate to say it, but with your list, you aren't preserving a single tank engine, thus ignoring half of the history of steam engines.

    For me, a Terrier would have to be in there. An engine from the 1870's, still running in the 1960's?
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏18 جوان 2011
    المشاركات:
    30,856
    عدد المعجبين:
    32,453
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    مكان الإقامة:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I wondered about the Terriers, and indeed the Beattie Well Tanks. But neither were typical, hence my choice of the M7 as a compromise - pre-grouping design, long lasting, and of similar ilk to tanks that worked nationwide. Others are equally appropriate, but with nothing else "Southern", it seemed to create some balance.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2008
    المشاركات:
    28,582
    عدد المعجبين:
    68,012
    مكان الإقامة:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In which case it has to be Stepney, because it also enables you to tell the story of the preservation movement.

    The purpose of restricting the list to ten is to make the choice hard: you’ve got to make locos tell two or three significant stories. So say you want a vernacular 0-6-0 - there’s lots of choice but a Q1 doubles up as a wartime / austerity design etc.

    I’ll think about a considered list.

    Tom
     
    S.A.C. Martin و 35B معجبون بهذا.
  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏31 أوت 2010
    المشاركات:
    5,621
    عدد المعجبين:
    9,462
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    مكان الإقامة:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'd be interested in your views on my list. I must confess: it is undoubtedly a hard choice for just ten...
     
  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2017
    المشاركات:
    12,172
    عدد المعجبين:
    11,498
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Retired
    مكان الإقامة:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Interesting to see Puffing Billy, a freak of a vertical cylindered rack* loco and evolutionary dead end, when Locomotion, the first loco from the first UK public railway to use steam locos, doesn't appear ....


    * not rack .... as kindly pointed out by Simon (below) that was Mr. Blenkinsop's.
     
    Last edited: ‏24 اكتوبر 2022
    أعجب بهذه المشاركة Jamessquared
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏31 أوت 2010
    المشاركات:
    5,621
    عدد المعجبين:
    9,462
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    مكان الإقامة:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Point of order: Puffing Billy is NOT a rack locomotive. It was one of the first ones used for the adhesion railway at Wylam Colliery (for which Wylam Dilly also survives and was a sister locomotive).

    The two together are arguably part of the genesis of the modern railway that relies on adhesion between wheel and rail. Built by the engineer at the colliery - Hedley - they represent some of the earliest steam railways, where Rocket represents the change from the basic principles of a steam vessel turning wheels through cylinders and valve gear to the more complicated setups such as the multi tubular boiler.

    [​IMG]

    The preserved locomotive at the science museum, as shown above, showing this absolutely.
     
    أعجب بهذه المشاركة William Fletcher
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 سبتمبر 2005
    المشاركات:
    4,153
    عدد المعجبين:
    4,898
    الوظيفة:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    مكان الإقامة:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Puffing Billy Industrial 1814 0-4-0
    Rocket L &M 1829 0-2-2
    Columbine GJR 1845, 2-2-2
    Boxhill LBSCR 1880 0-6-0T 1880
    2517 Dean Goods GWR 0-6-0 1890
    120 LSWR T9 4-4-0 1900
    2818 GWR 28xx 2-8-0 1905
    Caerphilly Castle GWR 4-6-0 1923
    Mallard LNER 4-6-2 1938
    Evening Star BR 95 2-10-0 1960

    Puffing Billy - the primitive
    Rocket - because how not
    Columbine - because need the classic 2-2-2.
    Boxhill. Want a 19thC tank engine and something vaguely representative of the small types.
    2517. Because have to have a 19thC 0-6-0 freight type
    T9. A good example of the turn of the C passenger locomotive
    2818. The 20thC locomotive started here.
    Caerphilly Castle. The Castle and in particular its economy influenced everyone.
    Mallard. How not.
    Evening Star. Last gasp.

    There are some horrible ommissions. No 20thC suburban tank engine, no shunter. No City of Truro. 10 makes it really hard.
     
    Paul42 و S.A.C. Martin معجبون بهذا.
  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏18 جوان 2011
    المشاركات:
    30,856
    عدد المعجبين:
    32,453
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    مكان الإقامة:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The constraint of 10 is the challenge - all 3 would be disproportionate, but the transition from the pioneering engineering represented by Puffing Billy to the modern design pattern first used by Rocket tells an important part of the story of how we got here. Take Puffing Billy out, and you generate a sense of unjustified inevitability about what followed; remove Rocket and you lose the critical intermediate step in design.
     
  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2017
    المشاركات:
    12,172
    عدد المعجبين:
    11,498
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Retired
    مكان الإقامة:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Apologies .... Getting my ancient engineering dead ends confused due to the extensive rebuilds. Am I right in thinking both Puffing Billy, Wylam Dilly and their lost sibling were originally built for plateway, rather than edge rail operation? That'd make for two dead ends!

    I'm still standing by my case for Locomotion, for reasons stated already i.e. not only the loco, but the line on which it ran are historically key components of UK railway history, so if there's space for only one early vertical cylindered design in a National Collection of ten locos ...... (I didn't make the rules!)
     
  16. used2be

    used2be New Member

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 نوفمبر 2021
    المشاركات:
    65
    عدد المعجبين:
    29
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    مكان الإقامة:
    u.k.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Rocket L &M 1829 0-2-2
    G.N.R. 4-2-2 No 1.
    City of Truro
    2818 GWR 28xx 2-8-0 1905
    Fowler 4F 0-6-0
    Caerphilly Castle GWR 4-6-0 1923
    Stanier Black Five.
    Austerity 0-6-0T.
    Mallard LNER 4-6-2 1938
    Evening Star BR 9F 2-10-0 1960
     
    Last edited: ‏24 اكتوبر 2022
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2017
    المشاركات:
    12,172
    عدد المعجبين:
    11,498
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Retired
    مكان الإقامة:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Swindon get 3/10 spaces, Mr Sterling's loco has it's front wheelset removed and nowt from the Southern !!! Interested by the rationale for the Fowler 4F, unless trying to show why adequate bearing surfaces are a must.
     
  18. used2be

    used2be New Member

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 نوفمبر 2021
    المشاركات:
    65
    عدد المعجبين:
    29
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    مكان الإقامة:
    u.k.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My apologies to Mr. Stirling .
    I think the story should show poor design and build practices as well as the good - also most built.
     
    أعجب بهذه المشاركة andalfi1
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2017
    المشاركات:
    12,172
    عدد المعجبين:
    11,498
    الجنس:
    ذكر
    الوظيفة:
    Retired
    مكان الإقامة:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Pity they scrapped Leader then .....

    ..... WOT? :D
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    إنضم إلينا في:
    ‏8 مارس 2008
    المشاركات:
    28,582
    عدد المعجبين:
    68,012
    مكان الإقامة:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    [​IMG]

    One more yellow and you are off ... :)

    Tom
     

مشاركة هذه الصفحة