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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm not. I am a carpenter from Bath with no particular knowledge or experience of heavy engineering, locomotive restoration, operation etc, and therefore

    So, I am well aware I am not a credible person in this instance. I might have been credible enough for the sixties or seventies, but in this day and age when everything has to be approached in a professional manner, I am not. However, to be a donor, or become a shareholder, does not require any special qualifications, does it. Not everyone who contributed to build 60163 was a time-served engineer, there doesn't seem to be a section about experience and qualifications on the page about giving money to build the P2.
    I would have thought that if my suggested ownership pattern were to be followed, the only necessary qualification would be having the necessary money, and the willingness to put it into 7027.
    Surely it is up to the individual whether they think a project merits their support? I happen to think buying a share or two in a Castle would be worth it. I might be the only one, but there's an awful lot of begging bowls out there for things I couldn't give a monkeys about, and I don't give them my time or interest. Its up to others if they do. I'm not suggesting it is somehow made compulsory that people must contribute to any particular fund.
    If only 200 were to pay up? Well, that would be £100,000 down, and and £100,000 a year ongoing. Maybe not enough to buy the locomotive outright, and it would then take likely 15 years to see her operational. But what if a thousand were to pledge? Could go either way. We are a sampling of about 200 train enthusiasts who happen to enjoy a forum. By no means a true representation of the whole body.
    I do seriously wonder though, if some people might be tempted by the notion of actually owning a share in a locomotive, however small, 7027 or any other. All the appeals seem to be 'give us money for our toy' with which we will do as we please. Somehow these appeals don't actually appeal that much- its just chucking money into someone else's wishing well, and whilst they might give a warm fuzzy feeling or something, it is not the same as buying into something.
    "Donate some money to give some children somewhere football boots"- I'll give a tenner.
    "Buy your own son/daughter a pair of football boots"- I'll pay the whole lot.
     
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    An autonomy that puts the trustees and directors of GWS in the invidious position of being accountable for all that goes on, but without the authority to direct it. Which means that if things go belly up, they're in the firing line, and the "autonomous" groups can just slope off into the sunset.

    The individuals concerned have a degree of my sympathy for the situation that they have been placed in, but their collective distancing from something that is on their watch puts serious limits on that sympathy.
     
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  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I admire your honesty and frankness, and with that chutzpah this non-Swindonite might almost be tempted to part with some cash.

    However, in your analysis, I think you underestimate the role of the professionalism that the A1 Steam Trust brought to Tornado and now the P2. The fundraising is in itself an exercise that requires professionalism - just read some of the posts by @Gav106 for an insight.

    Finally, I've seen nothing in your posts to suggest that you couldn't or shouldn't be a trustee - your enthusiasm and non-expert interest are part of what's needed, in tandem with the professional expertise that's also required.
     
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  4. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    A question , does the GWS have a 3 super heat castle already in their collection,? if not, then are they not breaking their own ideals, as they would be in effect scrapping something missing from their own collection
    As regards the managership of the GWS, It would not be the first time an organisation has had someone at the helm, using the centre as their own 12 inch to the foot scale model railway, to follow their own dreams, when it might not be a good move for the organisation,
     
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  5. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Even if the 4709 group was truly autonomous it would presumably be possible for GWS management to say that either they would not allow parts from Thornbury Castle on the
    site or that they would have to leave as they were bringing the organisation into disrepute
     
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  6. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    [FX:Sigh] The 4709 Group have their project based at Tyseley at the moment and were previously based at Llangollen. They are not to my knowledge at Didcot. This is part of what must make all the personal abuse and attacks on the staff and volunteers at Didcot so frustrating for the poor folks. Still, it's so much more fun to have an Internet lynch mob than [better stop there...] let's just say that if you are aiming at the wrong target you're not going to score many hits on the right one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
  7. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    You could argue that very same point with 5227, which has just donated it's boiler and other parts to the Churchward County Project, with other parts I believe also being used for the 47XX
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair comment, but that doesn’t address the issues over GWS governance which have allowed this to develop, and are rooted at Didcot.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    How do GWS members feel about it though? On one hand, i can see the attraction of new builds to close the gap of classes that didn't survive, but not at the cost of losing an engine that is not already in the collection if you want to resurrect lost classes, then build from new, unless you happen to have an suitable boiler spare , or bought for that reason, but it should not be at the cost of losing an engine that could also fill that gap. Maindy Hall, was an duplicate in the collection, so its not alike the situation with 7027, In my view the GWS needs to distance its self from the project and remove the 4709 group from its varied projects, and tell them, or the person i believe is pushing this project, and harming the image of the GWS, they, and their loco, if they continue down this path are no longer welcome to be based at Didcot, or use the centre as funding,
     
  10. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    Go to their website: https://www.4709.org.uk/

    Then to their August newsletter: https://www.4709.org.uk/4709blog/august-newsletter

    Then click on their appeal for money at the bottom of the page: https://didcotrailwaycentre.digitickets.co.uk/category/30497

    Click on Email or Contact and see what comes up.

    They were only at Llangollen, Hele and Tyseley to get the job done with outside labour. As clearly shown above, their base is at Didcot RC.

    What the management at Didcot are telling us is that they have a group based at Didcot over which they have no control!
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
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  11. Major Midget

    Major Midget New Member

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    I did include it as an example of a new build that was was under the GWS' direction, at least at first, but it did get spun off to be independent with just support from the GWS. Perhaps relevant as a talking point given that 4709 is treated as independent too. Is it because the intention is for 3840 to be Toddington based and 4709 to be Didcot based that 3840 isn't under that much scrutiny, or is it just the crossover between between the leads of 4709 and their previous roles at Didcot? Presumably the crossover wasn't seen as an issue when 4709 was launched, but with the previous chairman being... previous, recent events may necessitate a more thorough independence a la 3840, regardless of 7027's eventual fate.


    I believe I've mentioned it before, but 5227 isn't in the same boat as 2861, 4115 or 7927, it's not completely gone. Might be one for a long drawn out process, but it is sitting off the turntable at Didcot undergoing what attention it can get. It's an assumption on my part that it hasn't left Didcot (or this mortal realm for that matter) because it has a home there as an example of a 2-8-0T. It's a bit hard to see the same for 7027 for me. A third Castle isn't necessary for the GWS collection, since I think more attention would be paid to individual classes and appearances rather than the not as noticeable difference of being a BR built Castle. 7027 would be in the same boat as 4942 for me were it not for 7027 being part way through a restoration in it's own right, and the obvious issue of a No.8 fitted 4709 being less than ideal.
     
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  12. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Point taken, but presumably 'Not on our premises' can apply equally elsewhere
     
  13. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Rather like the WSR thread in the past - going around in circles, I'm afraid.
     
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  14. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Might I suggest that as with the WSR, it aint what you do, its the way that you do it?

    Had the loco been offered for sale 'on the open market' then things might be viewed a bit differently
     
  15. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I've looked back and sadly I can't find it, but someone had uploaded some of the 4709 group promotional and appeal stuff they had received over the years and much of it has GWS branding liberally slapped all over it!

    The Chair of the 4709 Group who is publicly making all the proclamations about dismantling is the honorary vice president of the GWS, confirming that they are asking questions of him could go a long way to showing that the GWS Trustees are actually doing something beyond 'nothing to do with us guv'.

    I remember the lively AGM questions when they started using BR liveries, the next one could be interesting (or entirely apathetic who knows)!
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    The question has to be asked though, is this being done with the support of the GWS? Or has it been in effect hijacked by personalities with in the Night Owl group, who are trading off the GWS name but over which the society trusteeship have no control? a group, with in a group, acting like a parasite does taking over it's host.
     
  17. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    reading the facebook group it seems the project groups essentially operate without control or oversight and what comes across is a very divided volunteer base at Didcot with some ill feeling towards the projects and how they essentially consume limited resource over the running fleet
     
  18. Scrat

    Scrat New Member

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    Having heard the other side of the story, the 4709 group read of the rumoured sale in the magazines just as lots of other people did, only differenc being they didn't p**s about and pontificate, they actually got staright on the phone and did a deal.
    How's the large number of members for the JJP save 7027 fund coming along, has there been much money pledged yet?
     
  19. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    That’s a really useful perspective.

    Did you get a feel for whether the response to the sale was as expected, better/worse etc. than ‘the other side of the story’ anticipated?

    Would be really interesting to know if they’d modelled the possible impact on reputation or fundraising, and/or whether instead of the Saint idea they’d considered selling on 7027’s frames or other parts the NightOwl didn’t need to recoup some of the costs.

    Simon
     
  20. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    The possibility of a sale was reported on July 7th.7027 Thornbury Castle and was promptly refuted saying the owning group were merely reviewing their assets7027 Thornbury CastleJuly 25th.
    So, maybe for sale, maybe not. However I don't think any of us thought anyone would purchase the locomotive other than with a view to finishing off the job that had been so ably started at Loughborough. JJP claims to have enquired about potential purchase and been told then that 7027 was not for sale. It appeared that the initial Trackside announcement was the result of journalistic exuberance.
    Then August 12th7027 Thornbury Castle she is sold for spares.
    Pete Waterman sold the loco to a purchaser intending to restore her. JJP sold her to a purchaser who not only intended, but had the means and resources to restore her.
    It still beggars belief that Mr Gregory, who apparently was committed to the restoration of 7027, seems to have actually had no commitment or feeling for the locomotive at all. One wonders why he ever spent any money on her at all.
    Had the initial July 7th announcement that the loco was for sale been qualified with "quick sale needed or going to breakers", I believe the collective response would have been rather more purposeful.
     

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