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Project Wareham

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by David R, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    The only way we will see what a difference a Wareham to Swanage train service will make is to operate such a service and then evaluate the results. Lets take the nearest conurbation to Swanage.BCP. What is the % of EV ownership there as opposed to i/.c ?
    That evolution is going to take a decade or so depending on battery development and even then if the raw materials for such batteries remains readily available to the western world. If however the battery technology turns out to be a hands down winner is there any reason why that cannot be applied to railway vehicles
     
  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    And who will pay for a "proper" trial, as opposed to the 90 day obligation that will happen next year? And, if the numbers do add up to make a service self-supporting, what kind of railway will there be to Swanage? One that supports the T3, and Bulleids, etc.? Or a basic railway that is slimmed down to the level of St Ives, Okehampton, or Windermere?
     
  3. Nantyglo

    Nantyglo New Member

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    Apologies if I am mistaken, but I think you meant to say that you had put someone on Ignore. Disconnected replies seem to be an inevitable consequence of doing this, although one or two people do claim to derive some amusement from guessing what the ignored poster's comment might have been!

    I think if everybody pressed the report button every time he posts his wibble, the mods would soon get very fed up. (No, I am not suggesting this!).

    I believe @kwrail was advocating a formal ban from the forum altogether, which is something only the moderators can do.
     
  4. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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  5. Andy Moody

    Andy Moody Member

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    Indeed, I did mean Ignore. Have now edited my post, Thanks for pointing it out.
    Andy.
     
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  6. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    oliversbest said:
    The only way we will see what a difference a Wareham to Swanage train service will make is to operate such a service and then evaluate the results. Lets take the nearest conurbation to Swanage.BCP. What is the % of EV ownership there as opposed to i/.c ?
    That evolution is going to take a decade or so depending on battery development and even then if the raw materials for such batteries remains readily available to the western world. If however the battery technology turns out to be a hands down winner is there any reason why that cannot be applied to railway vehicles


    Your arguments, whilst consistent, lack any evidence of having any forethought behind them. The 90 day survey, when it happens, will be no more than a snapshot in time, so rather than pressing for it to be acted upon as soon as possible, you should really be pressing for it to take place the conditions that best suit your cause. We are undoubtedly on the brink of great changes to our way of life; EVs may be thin on the ground atm but numbers are rising. Anyone in the UK will tell you that adverts for cars on UK television feature mostly EVs or hybrids, even though I don't think there's a major coal-fired power station left - a lot more power is now coming from renewable sources and there is now a drive on to extract lithium for batteries from abandoned Cornish tin mines - but I'll reiterate that I don't believe a new era of mass use of public transport for leisure is one of them.
    People prefer not to share their personal space! They are also time-sensitive, so journeys made slow and inconvenient by having to change trains, compounded by a walk/ bus/taxi ride to start and or finish them are certainly not going to return to favour when opposed to the alternative of door-to-door by personal transport, and the convenience of having that transport to use at one's destination.
     
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  7. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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  8. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    The final paragraph describes perfectly why a smooth transfer at Wareham is needed. Train/same platform/train/exit at Swanage. Used to be a flat rate cab fare from the Station to anywhere in Town.No parking hassles,no driving hassles and helping to keep the Swanage air clean. Its coming! If you want to see what everyones idea of "personal space" is ,view the images of Bournemouth East Overcliff Dr last weekend. Public vehicles could not get through! The levels of concern are at last drifting upward.
    Does the ghost of Jasper" live on? Lithium in abandoned Cornish Tin Mines. The Piskies are chortling about that one!! or is it Mowy Cornu disinformation !
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
  9. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    Reply to 358


    St Ives and Windermere. Two Branches doing what they were built for over 100yrs ago. Taking passengers from the main line to resort areas. The stripping of their facilities(although I have travelled both fairly recently and found them passable) by BR and its successors no doubt pleases the accountants but presents an unnecessarily sorry sight for travellers.Okehampton.? The Government woke up to the fact that Dartmoor National Park was getting swamped. Its a praiseworthy initiative to get people to visit without cars and get cycling or walking. Anything bad about that? And of course if the old LSWR line to Bere Alston is restored the Okehampton line renewal will be viewed as a stroke of genius!
     
  10. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    Just checked. A pilgrim can land at Manchester Airport and get a direct train to Windermere. about 2h 20m trip.OR if one gets in late in the evening its Heathrow express to Paddington then 2345 to St Erth. Easy change and coffee in St Ives just after 0800. There is a very good video on the Night Riviera and it gets good reviews(awaiting a barrage of negativity!!)
    So there are many reasons for a direct Swanage to Wareham Service. If the SR chooses to terminate at Norden Gates what is preventing a local or even higher governmental body from contracting for a direct Wareham to Swanage service? I love Bulleids and M7s also and happy to see them serve as an entertainment. Are they being used as their builders intended? Of course not!
    Is the Swanage Branch being operated as its resurrectors intended.Of course not.
    They wanted something similar to the Royal Wessex connection as quoted by SRC in its recent leaflet.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
  11. Paul.Uni

    Paul.Uni Well-Known Member

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    So in answer to 35B's question, you want to close the Swanage Railway as a heritage line and transfer it to NR/GBR? Have I got that right?

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
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  12. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    Search through all the long correspondence on this subject from myself. There is no suggestion of operating Norden to Swanage other than HR. notwithstanding that the SR itself realises its obligation to operate trials from Wareham
    Recent emanations from Swanage indicate that they are "operating on an edge" Doesn't augur well for 2023 does it?
    Would there be an uproar if a national carrier ran a train service Wareham to Swanage if the SRT is unable to do so? If so Why?
    What are the detractions of say two in and two out per day?
    Do you think SR will EVER return to two train steam operation?
    Should the SRC continue to operate on week days past September?
    I have advocaed a hybrid operation. if and how that is possible is up to planners and executives but at this stage of the game there would seem be be advantages to both sides
    Personally,Do you believe that the SRC is a Norden Gates and no connection with firm next door operation?
    I believe that the pioneers had it right and now,perhaps for different reasons that they envisaged, the main line connection must be capitalised on
     
  13. Andy Moody

    Andy Moody Member

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    [QUOTE="oliversbest, Do you think SR will EVER return to two train steam operation?[/QUOTE]

    Yes.....From tomorrow and throughout August.
     
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  14. Musket The Dog

    Musket The Dog New Member

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    Common sense?
     
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  15. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    My view is this, If the SR intend to operate between Swanage and Wareham, it has to be done in a way that does not impact the entire lines survivability, so, would the following work, first train works through to Wareham, using the plated stock, with either the U, or 33, forms the first off Wareham, to Swanage, other services from Wareham are DMU, as far as Corfe Castle, change there for services to Swanage, Last trip runs throughout from Swanage to Wareham, and return to Swanage. that way Wareham gets 2 through services, to and from Swanage, the rest of the time. its a shuttle, using the railcar, or DMU, only between Wareham and Corfe.
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I really think that this thread is making a meal out of something quite simple and I am sorry if what I'm saying below has already been thrashed out but, sorry to say, some of the nonsense on here has fallen into the TL;DR category.

    1. The only solution for Wareham is to have a DMU shuttle as that fits best the infrastructure at Wareham. The frequency of the shuttle is something that possible passenger numbers and SWR timetables will dictate.
    2. The question is whether that shuttle runs down to Swanage and is integrated with the wider Swanage-Norden service.

    One would think that any transport system that takes cars off the road is one that would be supported but it shouldn't take an age for the journey so an interchange at, say Corfe, as @martin1656 suggests just adds a complication.

    So in the summer, I would envisage a steam service between Norden and Swanage plus a DMU service between Wareham and Swanage that is also available for travellers south of Norden.

    That would introduce a mixed economy of trains - steam and diesel - on the SR and the occasional through service to and from Wareham.

    Is that too difficult to achieve?
     
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But sadly they don't mix. Fundamentally, your "public" service needs a line speed somewhere around 50 - 60mph and absolutely minimal staffing cost to be remotely viable. But that conflicts with the "heritage" infrastructure, which is based around a limit of 25mph. So you have little subtleties of things like cant on curves, which would need reprofiling at huge expense to increase the line speed. Then there's the signalling: mechanical signalling with manned signal boxes etc is only viable because it is staffed and maintained primarily by volunteers - but it is one thing rostering one shift per day for perhaps 200 days per year; something completely different getting volunteers for two shifts per day for 365 days. A year-round public operator couldn't make their service dependent on volunteer signalmen; but couldn't afford to staff the heritage signalling infrastructure - so that would all have to go, along with all the sidings etc (every additional connection costs significantly in reksignalling work). You would be back to the St Ives style basic branch line - effectively an elongated siding.

    You can have a heritage line with occasional incoming charters; or you can have part of the public network. You can't have a hybrid: if the hybrid has a basically heritage ambiance, it is too costly for the public service. If it is basically like other surviving public branch lines, it has no heritage operating capability. Given the reality of that choice, a heritage line that currently takes 200k passengers per year is of much greater benefit to society than a part of the national network that would carry a fraction of that number.

    Tom
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thank you for clarifying your thinking.

    At the risk of repeating things I’ve said previously, your analysis is based on some fundamental misunderstandings of how the nation network operates. What I will now write is not trying to find molehills but a statement of the issues that would have to be overcome. I will also ignore the proposed GBR as the legislation bringing it into being is still to be approved, let alone enacted, and may well change if Grant Shapps is moved from DfT by the next PM. What follows is also based on policy as it is, not what you, I or anyone else might think it ought to be. Not a rejection of your environmental concerns, but because U.K. government policy is not yet anywhere near the place that would allow environmental considerations to work as you suggest.

    The national network is operated on Network Rail infrastructure. The vast majority of passenger services are run by Train Operating Companies (TOCs), who operate as outsourced service providers under contract to DfT. Those contracts have always been highly prescriptive, and have become much more so since Covid with Whitehall having to approve even minor spend or promotions. A few years ago, SWT operated specials to Corte. Unfortunately, SWT have since been replaced by SWR, who have a completely different financial position even without Covid problems.

    In addition, other operators can bid for paths on that infrastructure and, if granted, they may run their trains. This is the basis on which the likes of WCRC & LSL operate, but their licenses do not permit them to run public timetabled passenger services.

    However, if they wish to run a public timetabled service, they have to get their plans approved by a quango called ORR. This is an onerous process, typically taking years. To date, only 4 such open access operators have been approved (Hull Trains, Wrexham & Shropshire (defunct), Grand Central, and Lumo). None have been the type of micro operation you envisage as all need significantly more demand to pay the high costs of becoming authorised.

    In addition, the NYMR has obtained permission to extend its services to Whitby. This is a very popular service with the punters, but raises significant practical challenges due to a combination of regulatory requirements, timetabling challenges and general priority issues when there are delays. It is also emphatically not a traditional public service, but a heritage railway offering extended onto the national network. This is the model (details vary) being proposed for the Swanage Railway services to Wareham.

    The above are issues that explain why I and others see so many “molehills” about extending Swanage services onto Network Rail infrastructure. All of these would require significant expenditure before anything can happen - expenditure that in the context of the current government policy framework has to be assumed to be provided from Swanage resources.

    It’s also worth reflecting on the impact of pushing trains through onto the Swanage. Even on a relatively lightly used line like that to Weymouth, paths are limited. Delays at Wareham can ripple across the whole SWR network and beyond, which puts much more pressure on getting it absolutely right for Swanage staff.

    If meeting demand requires restoration of higher speeds than 25mph, this will change the legal regime under which the railway operates. Preserved railways operate under a version of the old Light Railway exemptions, but now defined quite restrictively in the Railways Act 1994 by speed. Increase that speed, and extra kit like TPWS and OTMR becomes mandatory on everything - not just the couple of trains fitted for the trial. Elsewhere, such higher speeds have also been identified as affecting infrastructure, for signal sighting, cant, stopping distances amongst other things. Again, decidedly non trivial.

    I don’t know how the regulatory system works in Canada, or what constraints local and national governments employ. Given disasters like Lac Magantic, I suspect it’s much less rigid than in the U.K. - after all, the businessman whose railroad was involved there found the British system didn’t take to his vision of short railroads when he tried with EWS.

    We can all agree that it would be nice to have operations to Wareham. The issue is one of practicality; talk of molehills depresses those of us who have to live with the system that actually exists and can’t wish it away.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Would a Wareham-Corfe shuttle with people changing trains to a Corfe-Swanage service really be sensible as a regular operation? People don't want the hassle of changing trains, which includes getting children, pushchairs and all their beach stuff off one train and onto another. If the two trains are at Corfe at the same time it will also mean a walk from one platform to the other. Add to that the likelihood that other passengers will be doing it in the other direction and it becomes quite chaotic. If you arrange services such that only one platform is involved then you reduce the walking but introduce a longer wait and even more people on only one platform. In this instance you will have (say) the DMU arriving at the platform where there are passengers waiting to board to travel to Wareham. Before they can board, all those passengers destined for Swanage will have to disembark but have nowhere to go so will have to wait on the platform for their train. There train to Swanage can't arrive until the DMU has gone so are left waiting on the platform. When this arrives, it too will probably have passengers wanting to go to Wareham but they will then have to wait until the DMU returns.
    The NYMR occasionally does set swaps at Grosmont and it is very unpopular with passengers leading to lots of complaints from people who have settled down for a 1½ hour journey only to find they are turfed out part way through their journey. These ideas are great in theory when only empty stock is involved but are not really practical on a daily basis when carrying Joe Public.
     
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  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    @Steve. We seem to be on the same page over this as with #1836.
     
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