If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

4555 Damage at South Devon?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jimc, May 4, 2022.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,493
    Likes Received:
    23,726
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If I were a passenger affected by the impact on services, I might be asking why something that stops the job for a non-incident is acceptable. I would also be asking why, if the consequences of even a minor touch, are the job stop, mitigations aren't considered appropriate for the event, rather than just the consequences of that event. Putting a risk management hat on, I would also be curious as to why it was deemed acceptable to increase the probability of an incident, however minor, while spending significantly to mitigate the impact of that incident.

    We are veering well off topic, but there is a Twitter account called "ratemybuffers". Judging by the ratings it gives, it seems to be very keen on measures that consume large amounts of space (friction arresters with clear space behind) rather than managing a less perfect engineering option that permits use of limited space for actually running trains. The installation at Whitby triggers similar thoughts in me.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  2. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,567
    Likes Received:
    5,224
    Ratemybuffers, wasn't a Tory mps forced to resign after looking at that in the house of commons?
     
    MattA, maddog, cg and 4 others like this.
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,317
    Likes Received:
    16,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In steam days there was no formal training on different types of locos, a driver was expected to take on whatever he was allocated. With enthusiast specials using ‘foreign’ motive power the loco was often worked by a crew familiar with it from the home region and a local conductor driver. Even that could lead to problems, Bert Hooker told the story of when he took a Merchant Navy over Shap. He was getting a bit worried about water but was assured that they could fill up at Dillicar, as they entered the Lune Gorge the fireman was instructed to get ready to drop the scoop. A bit difficult on a Southern engine, there isn’t one!
     
  4. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    Occupation:
    Safety, Technical and Offroad Driver Trainer
    Location:
    South Yorkshore
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'm not sure its over dramatised at all, a near miss/hit or incident with no damage or injury should be used as an opportunity to reflect and review procedures- its how we learn and how Health and Safety in the workplace evolves.

    I'm not arguing that it's not suitable, however it is a mitigation for an incident occurring, not a control measure to prevent the incident occurring in the first place.

    The fact that an investigation has occurred is good- because hopefully it will either reinforce the case that yes, the set up is suitable or no, we need to look at lessons to be learned.

    Chris
     
    Aberdare and maddog like this.
  5. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,442
    Likes Received:
    6,546
    So what do you propose? Not getting out of bed in the morning? Replacing drivers by robots? Every allowance was made for human error in this instance and it worked just fine. We are not talking about a train crashing into the buffers at speed. This was a very low speed shunting error and I fail to see what other control measures would be relevant here.

    Peter
     
    Johnb, Paul42 and Steve like this.
  6. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    With a friction arrestor, unless you can be certain it has sprung back to it’s original position (and they don’t always), you have potentially compromised it’s effectiveness for the next thing which hits it. So reporting and getting it checked out is definitely the way to go.

    The advantage of them of course is that they minimise damage to trains (and people) in low speed bumps. Which probably covers the majority of terminal platform incidents.

    Can’t comment on the specifics at Whitby, never been there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    Occupation:
    Safety, Technical and Offroad Driver Trainer
    Location:
    South Yorkshore
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Read my earlier post.

    Someone not on the footplate to be the eyes for the driver if they are not in a position to have good vision- I'm struggling to see how using a procedure used in shunting elsewhere is seen as a big problem.

    Fixed visual markers displayed to give distances.

    They are both controls, both would be easy to implement, cost virtually nothing and potentially improve the safety of the process.

    Once again, it MAY be that following an incident and an investigation it could be decided that no further action is required.

    With regard your question about proposing not getting out of bed- thats the kind of nonsense and attitude I have to deal with EVERY day.

    Health and Safety is about keeping people safe, and part of that process in analysing and critiquing near misses.

    I am very pragmatic about safety, I have to be- otherwise I wouldn't be able to do my job- I work in high risk environments all day every day.

    I also deliver training and advise on high risk activities.

    Chris
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2022
    YorkyLad, Sheff, acorb and 6 others like this.
  8. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,442
    Likes Received:
    6,546
    If you read my posts I have never suggested otherwise. Human error does occur and people can misjudge distance. All I'm saying is that you need to have adequate safeguards in place should this happen - in this instance those safeguards were in place and proved to be effective. What more do you want? Those of us who operate in the heritage railway sector know only too well that we operate in a high risk environment every time we sign on duty. It is sometimes reassuring to know that devises that are in place to keep us all safe actually work when put to the test.

    Peter
     
  9. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    The worst aspect of the Whitby event seems to have been that the train was impounded, delaying the passengers, while the extremely minor actual incident was investigated – rather than a quick "No harm done: let's keep the trains running" and then the investigation.

    The latter happens every (operating) day on preserved railways, it happens with railtours on the main line, it happens with EMUs on the ex-Southern network and it happens occasionally with other passenger trains on the main line. The only difference is that everyone involved expects the very gentle impact of the buffers or the centre coupling, whereas at Whitby the expectation was that the loco would stop some distance short of the buffer.

    I have noticed that trains full of passengers stop well short of the buffers at many termini, even when the buffers are the energy-absorbing kind, thus forcing every passenger to walk several extra yards. Customer service?
     
    35B likes this.
  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,046
    Likes Received:
    15,735
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Full disclosure, I have no experience in a railway environment more on construction sites, however the idea of shifting a 100 odd ton piece of machinery round a corner without the operator having line of sight without at least a banksman in place flabbergasts me, our SSOW wouldn't let you do that with a transit van.
     
    Sheff, ross, MattA and 4 others like this.
  11. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    When teaching sailing I regularly point out that if you stop a foot too far away from a jetty all that happens is embarrassment, whereas...
     
    MattA, 69530, weltrol and 2 others like this.
  12. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,911
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Occupation:
    Theatre
    Location:
    Merseyside>Bury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But, a transit van isn't on rails...
     
    LMS2968, Chris86 and Johnb like this.
  13. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,589
    Likes Received:
    3,009
    Occupation:
    Railway Engineer
    Location:
    Cowdenbeath
    The driving standards for my own TOC are that you are to stop 6ft/2m off buffer ends or stabled unit. Making contact with a buffer stop is an operational incident/collision, as is making contact with another unit which you are not booked to tie on to. The caveat with the latter is, even if booked to tie on, you cannot couple up until you have stopped your own train and begun coupling preparations by inspecting couplers, ensuring the other unit is secure with doors closed etc.

    Edit : I should also add further caveats to the above. This covers our EMU and DMU fleet on a generic level. There are some terminus platforms where you are advised to stop with an increased distance than 6ft from the buffers due to platform dispatched hardware locations, signal sighting on other end of platform or due to other unique anomalies. The HST operating instructions I believe are also different, stating a larger distance than 6ft but that fleet isn't on my ticket so my knowledge is limited there.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2022
  14. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    All that is needed is for the fireman, or the ground frame operator, to see the driver to the blocks. Beats me why some seem to missing the simplest solution.
    Pat
     
  15. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    Occupation:
    Safety, Technical and Offroad Driver Trainer
    Location:
    South Yorkshore
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Quite!
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Dangerously radical there, Pat! :Woot:
     
  17. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,046
    Likes Received:
    15,735
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Sounds rather different to the approach that used to appear to be taken by TPE when coupling two 185 units which was to drive them together with ever increasing velocity until the coupling worked! :D
     
    MellishR, paullad1984 and pete2hogs like this.
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ever driven a reasonable sized superheated steam loco? So you're the driver of a Black 5 with a Deeley brake, not the best of things to finesse. You stop slightly short of the the mark (yes, there is one.) and you give it a whiff of steam to get there. It doesn't move so you give it a bit more; it moves rather quickly and you go for the brake. Too late. One reason why stopping 6 feet before coupling up as per the rules is one of the worst things you can do with a large steam loco.
     
    GWRArry, stumpytrain, Sheff and 11 others like this.
  19. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    500
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Absolutely this. I've seen comments before about stopping short then buffering up. Totally the wrong way to drive a steam engine.
     
    Rumpole, MattA, green five and 6 others like this.
  20. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,498
    Likes Received:
    5,455
    It is indeed, including the first post of this thread ;)
     
    Davo likes this.

Share This Page