If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Ben Jenden

    Ben Jenden Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2019
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    628
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Croydon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Statfold Engineering updated its FB page with regard to a further update on 72 Fenchurch and some piston and valve components from the Q-class in for attention https://www.facebook.com/389572861382094/posts/1673673016305399/

    Both locos, 65, 34059 and 84030 also feature in the latest Steam Railway Magazine under "The Roster" feature
     
    30854 likes this.
  2. Ben Jenden

    Ben Jenden Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2019
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    628
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Croydon
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Latest issue of the Bluebell Times - has an update on Fenchurch's overhaul.

    Also - part 1 of a two part article on No. 65. Part 1 covers the history of the loco up to withdrawal by BR. Part 2 (next month) will cover the subsequent history of its preservation, disappearance and reappearance.

    https://www.bluebell-railway.com/bluebell-times/

    An interesting point I picked up on the chronology of the Stirling O1, which I allude to in the article but don't cover in depth. Essentially, the loco was designed, specifications drawn up and an order for the first ten locos placed all before Stirling actually took up his post at Ashford! The relevant chronology is:

    • 28 March 1878: Stirling appointed Locomotive Superintendent of the SER (this essentially means the board decision to offer the job)
    • (Undated, but before 4 April) Putative 0-4-2 design rejected by the SER (mentioned by Bradley)
    • 2 April 1878, Stirling resigns from the G&SWR, begins working out his notice
    • 4 April 1878, Revised 0-6-0 design, agreed by the SER - same boiler, cylinders and motion as the rejected 0-4-2 design
    • 11 April 1878, Tenders sought from interested suppliers
    • 15 May 1878, Letter of intent for first batch, Sharp Stewart and Co
    • 30 June 1878 - finishes his notice period at G&SWR, "leaves Kilmarnock for good" (Source: Steamindex)
    • October 1878 First loco delivered
    The design is clearly his, but essentially worked out while he was still formally employed by the G&SWR!

    At first glance it might just be that he arrived with drawings of a similar G&SWR loco; however, I think Ashford must have had some input into the design, since the acceptance of the Sharp, Stewart & Co. order was made "on the basis that steam reversers were fitted at no extra cost", which was agreed. Which suggests the initial drawings didn't;t have that feature, so can't have been a complete copy of the G&SWR design. It is nonetheless a remarkably quick turnaround; Stirling must have been working hard on SER matters even while still based in Glasgow.

    For interest, had the SER had an 0-4-2 design, it would probably have looked something like this:

    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...THE-GLASGOW-SOUTH-WESTERN-RAILWAY/i-QpWHNts/A

    I can't find a picture of a Stirling 0-6-0 from the G&SWR, but the subsequent Smellie design looks like this, and was probably closely related:

    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...F-THE-GLASGOW-SOUTH-WESTERN-RAILWAY/i-vRxz24G

    (Cab-mounted reverser on that loco built in 1890, whereas on the SER, Stirling swapped from cab-mounted to running plate-mounted reversers round about 1884).

    Tom
     
  4. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thank-you. Interesting stuff for those of us who like our history.

    I've attached a low-quality photo of a James Stirling G&SWR 0-6-0 from Essery & Jenkinson "LMS Locomotives". There were 12 engines in this class built at Kilmarnock in 1877-78, from which 9 survived at Grouping but were scrapped by the LMS in the 1920s.

    The tender is an early Stirling type with springs behind the frames. James Stirling left that design behind and went forward on the SER using tenders on Cudworth's model with outside springs above the running plate.

    But the engine itself looks just like an SER O-class. I cannot find a full list of dimensions, but Casserley & Johnston ("Locomotives at the Grouping") quote wheel diameter 5ft 1in, cylinders 18in x 26in and weight 35½ tons, exactly the same as figures given by Bradley for the SER O-class when originally introduced. It seems fair to conclude that the G&SWR and SER engines, if not identical, were extremely close.

    The 0-4-2 was a popular type in Scotland in the mid-Victorian period. Both Patrick & James Stirling built them in quantity for the G&SWR. Patrick built many more for the GNR, but James dropped the type on moving south as did his successor at Kilmarnock, Hugh Smellie. But Smellie in 1882 introduced the small-wheeled (6ft 1in) "Wee Bogie" 4-4-0 on the G&SWR, which was very similar to the A-class 4-4-0 that James Stirling had introduced on the SER. And of course Smellie continued to use the Stirling domeless boiler.

    https://railway-photography.smugmug...-Hugh-Smellie/H-Smellie-GSWR-119-Class-4-4-0/
     

    Attached Files:

    Bluenosejohn and Jamessquared like this.
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thanks for that. A couple of early photos that may be of interest in this little Scottish digression.

    B07C9E92-1D5E-4416-8DE8-12D73D4F6277.jpeg

    This is an early Stirling O class. Apart from the general disposition of controls, the interesting feature is the cab-mounted reverser. This came from Scotland with James Stirling, but around 1884 he changed the design and moved it to the running plate.

    886EC418-82F6-4611-89F4-1033B3CA4AE5.jpeg

    This is a G&SWR Stirling loco, but running on the LCDR: No. 1 “Brigand”. She - along with sister loco “Corsair” - came from a batch of twenty 0-4-2s designed by Patrick Stirling and built by Sharp Stewart in 1860. The LCDR arranged to buy two of the batch, with Stirling’s approval - perhaps the G&SWR realised they had over-committed and were happy to find a willing buyer? In any event, both locos had relatively long lives, subject to the usual Victorian reboilerings etc, surviving until May 1903 and both receiving their allotted SECR numbers. The photo is from after 1891, when they had the cab weather board extended to provide a rudimentary roof, which was the condition they retained until being scrapped.

    Tom
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    30854 likes this.
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Fascinating update. Query: I take it the original A1/A1x inner firebox was of copper? How do the comparative costs stack up across the lifetime of this component?
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Define original :)

    As built, all the Terriers had wrought iron fireboxes. In 1889, two had experimental steel fireboxes fitted; thereafter copper was used when replaced, Fenchurch probably first receiving a copper firebox in 1890. The tubes changed from iron to brass at the same time (and later would have been steel).

    In modern (as opposed to pre-preservation) usage: The firebox just removed was made in the 1970s, so I think it basically managed two periods of duty (19 years in traffic between 1980 and 2010 by my reckoning). You'd expect a copper inner firebox to last longer (at greater initial cost) and it can be repaired by partial replacement of wasted material, but at significant material cost relative to steel.

    Tom
     
    Johnme101 and Copper-capped like this.
  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Cheers Tom. I'd no idea wrought iron was used that late, assuming the material went out somewhere around the time of Mr.Hackworth's archaic 0-6-0 design. I was aware of several early uses of steel.

    Am I right in thinking 473 still carries a boiler (shell at least partly) over 110 years old? If so, how on earth has that lasted so long?
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I believe so, though you'd have to study the boiler repair records to know precisely which atoms were also there a century ago!

    The Bluebell website has the statement "Remarkably ‘Birch Grove’ retains her original boiler, number 891, fitted new in July 1898. It had been passed to various other Brighton tanks of classes D3, E3 and E4 before being refitted to Birch Grove in 1960." However, I don't believe that that is true. If you look at pictures of the original boilers, the dome is further forward (and smaller); the safety valve and other fittings are different etc. (Lots of pictures here: https://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/R.J.Billinton/E4.xhtml)

    Bradley says that 473 had a new boiler of the I1 type fitted in September 1912. I wonder if the statement on the website is garbled, and actually means that it is now carrying the same boiler built for it in 1912.

    Tom
     
    Johnme101, bluetrain and 30854 like this.
  11. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I see that Bradley also has adjacent photos of two B4 4-4-0s, one built at Brighton with a 3-ring boiler and centrally-positioned dome and one built by Sharp Stewart with a 2-ring boiler and dome further back. He also noted that all of the B4s were built in 1899-1901 with boilers made of wrought iron, which surprised me. I believe that the introduction of steel boilers had been a gradual process across railways in Britain, with Francis Webb at Crewe leading the way in the 1870s, and the SER and LCDR having adopted steel boilers by the 1890s. Does anyone know if companies other than the LBSC were still using wrought iron boilers on new locos in 1900?
     
  12. Avonside1972

    Avonside1972 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    28
    This is indeed a misquote that has been perpetuated by it being on the Bluebell website, I believe taken from Peter Coopers LBSCR Stock Book. On page45 is a list of boilers as fitted to those locos surviving. Under 473 it states "By chance, this locomotive now carries the very boiler that was fitted new to it when reboilered by Marsh." Date given as 9/12. HTH
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thanks for that - it makes a lot more sense (except it should presumably read “reboilered by Lawson Billinton” - Marsh had gone by September 1912.

    When I got on Flying Scotsman, the fire hole door was the same pattern as Birch Grove - presumably bought to Brighton from Doncaster by Marsh. So I think the boiler is Marsh pattern, but installed in September 1912 under Lawson Billinton.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
    Avonside1972 likes this.
  14. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    He certainly had Tom! :)
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    They bred ‘em tough at Doncaster …

    Tom
     
    ghost likes this.
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Great progress . Of interest, what sort of spares inventory is now held for the 'P' class .... and is there any sort of cooperative arrangement the K&ESR to assist a future in service of this amazing quartet?
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well, there are clearly three new blast pipe castings now :)

    Nominally there are four boilers for the three locos on the railway, but I think the two not currently on locos are in poor condition, so require substantial work.

    I think the legacy of Project 27 is going to be lots of drawings in CAD format for making new castings, for example replacement cylinders for No. 178 should be much easier now that No. 27 has proved the pattern.

    As for co-operation with other railways - I don't know of specifics with No. 753, but in general it goes on all the time. We recently borrowed a tamper from the KESR because ours needed some attention and the Balfour Beattie one wasn't available.

    Tom
     
    Wenlock, 30854 and torgormaig like this.
  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'm posting this while semi falling asleep, so afraid I might be making the foolish error of disagreeing with a post having failed to understand it properly. If so may I apologise in advance?
    Do you think you are verging on the 'CME does everything' trap?
    Even as early as 1978, and in a medium sized outfit like the SER was the locomotive superintendent r beavering away at his own drawing board? And if the revised 0-6-0 had the same boiler, cylinders and motion as the previous 0-4-2 were most of the key features of the design drawn up by the team Stirling was about to inherit?
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Clearly falling asleep;)
     

Share This Page