If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Coldgunner

    Coldgunner New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2011
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Peterborough, UK
    I guess there's always scope for corrections (if any) in future print runs.
     
  2. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,502
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Very sensible response! Did I recall that your next book will be about Mr Bulleid?
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was hoping for Francis Webb! ;)
     
    S.A.C. Martin and Jamessquared like this.
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    "John Chester Craven: how a robust approach to workshop discipline and strict upbringing of children led to a solid and standardised locomotive fleet that served his employers admirably".

    Tom
     
    30854 and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Those that suggest it, do it.;)
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm with Marc Antony: "I come to bury Cæsar, not praise him". ;)

    Tom
     
  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I have been asked to do a Bulleid book…

    …and one on Sir Nigel Gresley, which is a big honour for me. I’ve started work on both books simultaneously.

    The latter excites me because I have so much research already applicable that I can use. Gresley fans should have no fear by the way - I have already done a treatment and I think it’s going to reveal how much Gresley was up against it as CME. There’s reasons behind every decision, as it was with Thompson after.
     
    ragl, Richard Roper, 60525 and 5 others like this.
  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I physically printed out the book about five times and edited it along with four or five other editors from nat pres, my publisher, my typesetter and my wife all going through it and there are still likely some things we will have missed. Sometimes they just happen!

    I personally look forward to a revised version in years to come when more evidence appears or the arguments change again. Always room for fresh ideas and improvements.
     
    Coldgunner, Richard Roper and jnc like this.
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,186
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not sure his child rearing was so successful
     
  10. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,502
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I will look forward to the Bulleid book in particular....another very "Marmite" designer who needs to have his designs considered, in the context of the time, for a fair appraisal.
     
  11. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    The "Marmite" character has been very clear for a long while, with much consideration of both the good and bad features of Bulleid's work. But, as with Thompson, what Simon can bring to bear is evidence from primary sources of why decisions were made; both Bulleid's own decisions and his masters' decisions about what they would or wouldn't allow him to do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
    S.A.C. Martin and jnc like this.
  12. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,502
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What else would be interesting is how the original Bulleid pacifics are used and serviced in preservation times - so potentially a lot more information to assess the design criteria.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Putting the cat amongst the pigeons...

    Cost of conversion, P2 to A2/2 configuration (removal of streamlined casing, removal of driving wheel axle and addition of bogie, addition of cylinder and third set of walschaerts): £2400 per engine in 1943.

    Cost of conversion, Merchant Navy as built to as rebuilt, doing virtually the same conversion (sans removing a driving wheel axle): £7500 per engine in 1955.

    Even allowing for inflation 1943-1955 - this feels like quite an eye opening comparison.

    Thoughts?
     
    ragl and jnc like this.
  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    While it won't account for the whole difference, wartime wage and price controls were very much in force when the P2s were rebuilt, so inflation rates in the immediate postwar years would be relevant. Ditto import controls. Then there were considerations surrounding the end of the last wartime rationing regulations, the last of which went in 1954. If memory serves, wasn't 1955 the year of a cetain notable strike?
     
    jnc and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  15. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You need some sort of detailed list of exactly what was made new really... for example valve gear is expensive with all the machining. The Bulleids must have had three complete sets, but was a lot of the P2s gear outside gear reused?

    On a different topic... I saw reference elsewhere that there are people who suggest the P2s shouldn't have been rebuilt but transferred to more suitable routes. It occurred to me that if there were really more suitable routes than the ones the class was specifically designed for then something must have gone extraordinarily badly with the design process!
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good points, though straight away my thoughts went to those ex-LBSC "Terriers" and ex-LSWR 'Ilfracombe Goods', where neither could have fitted their 'second life' roles any better had they been specifically designed with Col.Stephens' lines in mind
     
  17. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    929
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Must confess that my brain is now busy trying to work out which of the good Colonel's lines needed one or more P2s.

    I vote for either the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire, or relaying Snailbeach to 4ft 8.5....
     
  18. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    3,512
    1955 prices were, across the economy, 75% higher than 1943 prices. So the starting point, not allowing for sectoral differences, is £2400 to £4300.
     
    30854, Jamessquared and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The P2s had one new set of valve gear per engine for each new centre cylinder and front crank axle setup. The Bulleids had parts of their outside valve gear reused - the P2 rebuilds reused their outside valve gear in its entireity.

    Speaking personally - the argument for "transferring them south" is rife with poor logic and lots of apocryphal stories (including the talk of a "rebellion up north at their rebuilding" - which frankly is an invention by writers after the event). Several years before rebuilding the P2s had poor availability and mileages. Their traffic utilisation was abysmal. Nobody outside of the Aberdeen main line wanted them on that basis.

    Nearly double.
     
  20. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What are you trying to prove?
     

Share This Page