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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    What happened with 46242 after Harrow and Wealdstone?
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    The boiler, 13043, was repaired and fitted to 6254, which returned to traffic from a Heavy General overhaul on 21 February 1953, i.e. eight months bef0re 6242 was back in traffic.
     
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  3. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    Repaired and returned to service. Withdrawn October 1963, scrapped at Crewe November 63
     
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  4. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Thanks for the updates. I knew it was repaired, but wasn't sure what would have been salvaged. There is a photo of it after being rerailed following the accident and it looked in a worse state than Grand Parade was.

    it also looked to be more damaged than 46202, which was scrapped, although there is a theory that Riddles seized on the opportunity of being one down on LMR pacifics as an excuse to build 71000, and 46202 was possibly repairable.

    On the Duchess, 46242, I understand that the frames were condemned and a new set was built, and a lot of the repaired loco came from the spares box. 46202 was kept at Crewe for two years after the accident before being dismantled and the parts went, presumably, into the Princess spares pool.

    The Jubilee, 45637, which was piloting 46202, took the worst of the impact, and was immediately condemned.

    Maybe 46242 was repaired as it was a member of a class of 38 locos, and the LMR (unlike the Eastern) wasn't that well off for class 8 power, whereas 46202 was a sort of one off, the front end of a Duchess on a Princess and with a smaller 4000 gallon tender, and it was scrapped for that reason?

    2968, as ever, will know!
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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  5. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    It's the story if a thousand small bumps and remembered repairs. I remember reading somewhere that a superstition amongst US airmen in ww2 was that a cold aircraft on issue was a lucky aircraft - as it meant the seals had given a bit, so it had survived a tour without serious damage. In one respect, it's true, in that all the mechanical systems hadn't failed, so all the tolerances/permutations in assembly had gone the right way.

    My comment on the clan a few weeks ago relates; when they decided the steam spider casting wasn't quite a perfect fit, they ground it to fit. Had it been one of 50 engines on the go in the days of mainline steam, this may not have been done, leading to it being perhaps a "shy steamer"
     
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  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I wish! I'm not certain how badly damaged 6242's frames were. The engine was on the ballast when hit by 5637, which largely went over the top, collapsing the smokebox and pushing the door back as far as the front tubeplate. The right hand front frame was sheared off just ahead of the outside cylinder and this piece torn away from the inside cylinder block; this latter suffered a lot of damage to its flanges and the valve chest smashed. Of the outside cylinder, only the flange mounted to the frame remained. The left hand front frame was probably out of line but could be straightened; but how far back the damage to the right frame extended isn't known. I suspect that it was minor from the outside cylinder rearwards. Allan C. Baker says that the repaired 6242 suffered complaints of draughts when returned to traffic. This was because of slight misalignment of the trailing frames causing the cab roof to be slightly low to the tender front, and so generating eddies in the air flow.

    It has also been said that the leading frames were cut from 6202 to effect the repairs to her half sister, and the use of the full curved dropped section of the running plate is given in evidence of this. These sections of 6202 were badly damaged in the accident so wouldn't really be reused, but they are, in any case, merely a bit of simple steel fabrication. The 'Utility Front' was a Tom Coleman idea, and seems to have fallen from grace after his retirement, hence 6202 receiving the curved front end, followed by 6242. Another problem is that I suspect that 6202's frames were 1 1/4 inches thick; they were laid down in 1933 with 6200/01's so probably followed suit. 6242's, like her sisters' were 1 1/8 inches. But I can't believe that Crewe would have cut the frames of an engine still nominally on the books. Had she been withdrawn, then yes, but that didn't happen until six months after 6242 returned to traffic.
     
  7. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    The recent RCTS book on the Stanier Pacifics suggests the front portion of 46202's frames were used on the replacement 46242.
     
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  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Do Deltics count as a betterment of A4s?

    Interesting. EoM as a renewal of Livingstone Thompson, and James Spooner as a renewal of EoM makes sense.

    DLG strikes me as more complex. It was intended to be a replacement boiler for EoM or ME but the funding expanded. However, although it was built in 1992, it wasn't until 2005 that they had enough power bogies to run all three fairlies together including a new pair.

    Ironically considering that it is a Saint, there is an element of secular religious relics about it. It provides a tangible physical connection to the past and moves it from recreation to continuation. I do not profess to be an expert on this or to understanding it fully, but anthropologists of religion emphasize how objects/rituals provide the physical connection with a past that cannot otherwise be reached. I am not sure if I am making sense but needless to say that a lot of people have written about the importance of objects and their psychological meaning to people that extends far beyond their physical usefulness.

    The photos of the locos showing the damage are quite interesting but they tend to only show one side.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There was absolutely nothing of 45637 left

    [​IMG]
     
  9. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    That is the view of the most damaged side, the valve gear having suffered from sliding across the platform; there are others of the right hand side. See 'Harrow & Wealdstone 50 years on', Peter Tatlow (2002 and 2008) Oakwood Press, Usk ISBN 978 0 85361 680 1. The bogie, or probably 6257's bogie were refitted for the movement to Crewe, but the leading crank axle had to be removed. The main damage is to the trailing frames: the hind drag box has been pushed forward disturbing the trailing truck bolsters and damaging its frame, and tilting back the cab and buckling the running plate. It badly bent the four-ply engine frames, which were riveted on behind the trailing coupled axleboxes. Both Pacifics' tenders were repaired, 6202's 9003 reappearing behind 8F 8134 from 20/6/53. Tender 9816 remained with 6242.
     
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  10. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    OK to bring the thread back to newbuild. Whilst I'm not sure if it has already been suggested. How about a North Eastern Class Z/LNER C7.If it has already been suggested a Great Northern C12 Atlantic tank........
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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  12. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Sobering indeed - not a lot left of that poor Loco... I seem to recall the boiler off 5637 was re-used too, will have to do some digging through my archives. It certainly doesn't appear to have broken its back, which is pretty amazing in itself, seeing the almost total destruction of the rest of the machine.

    Richard.
     
  13. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    It was repaired and put back into the pool, but since you're going through your records, you save me job!
     
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  14. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Sobering, too, is the thought that the ability of a boiler to survive that sort of impact is a reflection of the strength required to stand up to the colossal energy stored in normal use.
     
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  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Makes you think back to the earliest days, pre 'Planet', when practically everything was often hung off the boiler. Going forward a few decades I remember being surprised on first seeing the way the frames on the FfR "'England's' attach to the firebox outer wrapper as part of their load bearing structure. It's coming to something when even near contemporary, the Talyllyn's 'Dolgoch', looks (almost) conventional by comparison!
     
  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    That's how they were back in the day, with the hind drawbar attached to the firebox backplate. The 'Planets' were the same, as were the 'Patentees'. The Liverpool & Manchester railway's sole example of the type, No. 33 Patentee, was the only L&MR loco to suffer a boiler explosion when the backplate was pulled out when ascending Whiston Incline with a heavy load.
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Wow! I wasn't thinking beyond the presence of something akin to a main frame, so there you go, I've learned my 'new thing for the day'. Cheers! :)
     
  18. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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    Ditto the wheels!
     
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  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    One of the key innovations of the "Jenny Lind" type was that the inside frames supported the cylinders and driving axles, but stopped at the front of the firebox (to which they were attached). That in turn allowed a wider firebox (and therefore more heating area) since its width was constrained by the distance between the trailing wheels, not the distance between inside frames. At the same time, the trailing axle could be behind the firebox, so you didn't get the ungainly long rear overhang of a "long boiler" design.

    The result was a combination of high heating surface, but with great stability.

    Bringing this to new builds: I suspect that any proposal for a new-build Jenny Lind would founder on the need to treat the boiler as an integral part of the whole; it would at least make maintenance problematic where we are used to boiler lifts to separate the mechanical and boiler parts of the whole.

    Tom
     
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  20. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Don't forget that with road-going traction engines the boiler is also the 'frame'. With ploughing engines there is also the sideways forces applied to the boiler by the winding drum underneath.
     
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