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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    It would certainly be a radical change and appeal to those who would like the WSR to be operated more like a members' preservation society. The big stumbling block would be the loss of charitable status. Any charity has to be run for public benefit not in the interests of its members. A structure run by a supporters organisation would almost inevitably fail that test. The railway really needs access to more funds available to charities and the tax and rates advantages that status confers.
    The one option that combines the benefit of charitable status with community interest is the incorporated Community Beenfit Society
    The point made earlier is that in terms of an annual requirement to fill that bowl to the tune of around £1million that's likely to be the case whoever runs the railway. The key question is how can it best organise itself to make that target realistically achievable?
    Of course the argument that unless the PLC changes course it's not not having any of your money is principled and understandable. The problem is that you then have to accept the risk that witholding financial support on principle helps cause the terminal outcome everyone dreads.
     
  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    alternatively do we see the railway seeking to optimise revenue, encouraging visitors, proactively managing costs . Did we see a railway raring to welcome customers back last year. I know NP is seen as anti WSR , however read the comments on the railways facebook page, read the comments on the Friends facebook group, even the broader public psyche is against the railway .

    a successful team who applied for CRF 1 , was not the same group who led the CRF2 application , guess what happened ?
     
  3. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    If the railway requires £1 million a year, year on year and despite various different managements, it can not make that money then one has to question whether the railway is financial viable.

    If I am going to support a line through hard times I am going to support those that treat its volunteers with respect and humanity, I am going to support railways that work with not against the local community, I am going to support those railways that have a close and positive relationship with the groups associated with the line, and I am not going to send good money after bad to prop up badly run lines, incompetent managers and toxic cultures.

    To echo @Matt37401 , I don't have infinite funds ready to donate, and I am not going to donate 'no questions asked' in fact the reverse, I am going to ask questions before donating.

    If push comes to shove and it comes down to donating to help to one of two lines or groups to keep them going then I know where my money is going. The WSR has made its choices and now it has to live with them.

    Other than 'it's a railway you can't let it go to the wall' I have yet to hear a compelling reason why I should donate to the WSR rather than the S&DRT, MHR, Ff&WHR, WLLR, Bluebell, Strathspey, GCR, etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  4. Downline

    Downline New Member

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    I think the answer is why do people volunteer to give up there time to help at the WSR, another railway, volunteer at a hospital, scouts, or any organisation. Do they do it to get involved to do something positive, gain something out of there time, enjoy themselves, provide a positive experience for those they volunteer alongside and the visitors they engage with. Or do they get involved to get involved in internal arguments, politics, and all the negativity. Personally, I give my time up to a few organisations for the first category, if I want to get involved in an organisations politics, I can enjoy that experience from my day job, and have the pleasure of being paid for it.

    Be interesting to see what people, like yourself, who have very passionate views about what the WSR should do to change, but seem to expect others to do the donkey work for you. I think its clear the main issue is caused by a few (maybe an individual), maybe you can lead the solution to make that person change?

    Perhaps you will get involved with the WSR to make the necessary change. Perhaps you won't for similar reasons as my first paragraph. Or maybe you are just one of these so called 'keyboard warriors', have all the answers sat behind the computer screen, but wont switch the screen off to do something about it. I feel you fall into the last category unfortunately. To quote yourself, truth hurts...
     
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  5. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    We were told some time ago that that was indeed the plan (not necessarily with that particular name). The information came from someone who told us that he had been invited to participate but had refused. He was then thrown out, which seems another silly mistake on the PLC's part because they no longer had any hold over him to force his silence.
    On the other hand, if that is indeed the plan of the present PLC management it seems odd that they have not allowed the finances to deteriorate even faster, forcing the company into administration before now. Perhaps that is just another instance of their incompetence. Or perhaps it is a skilful exercise in disguising their intentions.
     
  6. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Some people have tried hard to effect change. Not only have their efforts been in vain but they have suffered for them.
     
  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    By your own argument and your own failure to lead any change at the WSR this would render you a keyboard warrior. Is that what you intended to say? Or are you wiggling out of it by saying that it is too close to work? Your argument makes no sense.

    My view is different than yours, it isn't the people at the top but the toxic culture (that allows them to flourish) and if the line is to survive then the culture needs to change. That has to come from within. No amount of changing leaders or changing organisations can change that.

    You can advise someone to stop doing things that are bad for their health, but in the end it is up to them to stop doing it and to start doing the right things.
     
  8. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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  9. Downline

    Downline New Member

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    I'm afraid it dosen't. But it does confirm that many people choose to give up there time for positive reasons, and don't want to waste that time for positivity getting involved in internal politics. And if politics does get in the way of there aims, they can very quickly 'unvolunteer' and volunteer elsewhere.
     
  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Ah - that old chestnut. There is nothing like being a victim of your own success eh? As I see it has happened on most worthwhile heritage railways. Its a pity that charming ramshackle bucholic branchlines get ruined by the hoards of visitors that they attract:). But how else do you pay the bills? For me the NYMR is a 21st Century Steam Railway operated in a largely traditional manner. Rather than being accurately historical it is making its own history as the years go by. Not much different really from such pioneers of the 1950s as the Talyllyn or Ffestioiog Railways. You have to adapt to survive - and I'm in favour of survival.

    Peter
     
  11. Piggy

    Piggy Member

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  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect our differences on that one are of degree, rather than fundamental (whisper it quietly, I even believe Mk1s can be good;)). That's why I made the comment I did to the posts by @Lineisclear - for all that I might disagree with aspects of the strategy, I recognise that there are honest people of goodwill trying to make the NYMR work and that they deserve support even if there are differences. That is a markedly different position to that in west Somerset, where it seems that the scope for honest disagreement is limited, and the leadership of the railway are doing little to convince potential donors that money given to WSR plc rather than A N Other project will be well used.
     
  13. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    What you consider to be 'politics' I'd consider to be the normal administration and running of an organisation. If it is considered to be politics then this shows how toxic the WSR is.

    If people volunteer for pleasure and turn a blind eye and do nothing to others being denied the same pleasure that also points to a toxic culture.

    The reality is that if a railway is creating an environment where people are being forced out - either formally by having their ID cards taken away, or informally by having their experience be so unpleasurable that they choose to leave, that is also a toxic culture.

    If volunteers choose to ignore the actions of WSR management because it gets in the way of their pleasure, then they can't really complain when the railway is run into the ground, or when potential donors say 'my money is going to the S&DRT, AVR, L&B, ESR, etc'
     
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  14. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    That is certainly worrying, why would an director of the WSR PLC , Also be an director of one of Mr Pratts companies, that might be in an position to profit from the WSR if it goes under .
     
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  15. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    There are several posts today where you accuse us of "withholding financial support"- the language of the alimony solicitor. Your use of these words suggests that you have become infected with the notion that the general public owes a debt of responsibility to the WSR, which we do not.
    Furthermore, when you say that our principles might help cause the terminal outcome that everyone dreads, you are indulging in the same blame shifting and responsibility-dodging that the PLC habitually uses. If the WSR fails, the responsibility will rest completely on the PLC and those in the supporting groups who have aided and abetted in its campaign of self destruction, yourself included.

    Some people tried to bring unity to the two trusts, partly to be able to bring enough voting power to the WSR AGM to end this reign of stupidity. This was met with outright lies, deceit, rule changes, date changes, threats, rumour, character assassinations.

    And now we should all hold our noses and hand over our money? No. I will let you all follow this man wherever you are prepared to be led, and if it results in the failure of the WSR, you all, directors, advisers, shareholders, trustees, ALL OF YOU will be responsible for squandering a half century of fundraising, volunteering, and other people's hard work and dedication, because ALL OF YOU are too lazy, cowardly, or morally directionless to stand against what is happening.
    But don't blame us for not throwing away good money after bad
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2021
  16. Downline

    Downline New Member

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    Maybe you choose to only see this 'toxic culture' that exists on the WSR. Maybe this 'toxic culture' doesn't exist 99% of the time, and only exists in the back office/board room, meaning most volunteers don't need to get involved because they dont see it? I dont know as I dont volunteer at the WSR, so I can only speculate, although I expect that most don't see anything. So maybe you should seek the view of an actual WSR volunteer and see if this toxic culture cloud lingers over them the minute they arrive at the WSR for there volunteer duty? Or you could scroll back through the thread to a few weeks ago, I remember a WSR volunteer commented on here and there comments disagree with your views.

    But unfortunately people like you don't like it when someone disagrees with you, or when the odd volunteer pops there head above the parapet to disagree with you. Instead your straight in there with snipe remarks, defending your narrow minded view, ignoring the views and evidence provided by others, failing to reconsider your views and opinion. No wander WSR volunteers and the WSR Plc chairman have been very vocal about how much they dislike this forum with people like yourself, which is a shame as people on here potentially have the answers and solutions to the WSR's problems but are going to be ignored due to the stigma associated with this forum due to a few.

    As I said previously, it would be interesting to see someone like yourself use there passion and energy they display towards there views and used it instead to make change, could end up being turned into one of these Channel 4 social experiment series.
     
  17. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can see, one of the main problems the railway faces is not understanding who its customers are. It seems to think its customers are the passengers alone. However, if you need £1M a year in the form of donations, then you have another set of customers to keep happy, the people and organisations who are going to give the £1M a year, not to mention the people who give their labour free of charge, the volunteers. No-one gives money for nothing, everyone expects something in return and the WSR has to make sure it is offering that return. It seems to me that the Plc very much take the latter two sets of customers for granted, thinking the volunteers will always volunteer and that the donors will always donate. All they have to do is say "your railway needs you (or your cash)" and the bodies and money will come flooding in.
    The WSR's offer to the passengers is pretty good, or it would be, if it could use all its line, and its offer to the volunteers must be adequate, or it would be short of staff, but its offer to potential donors is piss-poor. Its public relations are a disaster, its structure is a turn-off to major corporate donors seemingly perpetuated by the desire of a few to remain big fish in small ponds and it offers little to the individual donor. We are not even told what the £1M a year is to be spent on. As lots of people upthread have stated, donors want to feel that their donations will be well-spent. This sense is totally lacking with the Plc. Apart from the much vaunted "turning a £800K loss into a £300K profit", which itself was mainly done by having a company financial year that contained two winters and only one summer in the loss-making year, there has been little evidence of financial prudence. Money was raised in the easiest possible way, by hocking everything that could be hocked, followed by shaking down all the many organisations based on the line.
    The other thing that individual donors generally get in return for their donations is information. A good example of how to do it is the overhaul of 9351, where an illustrated account was given to donors showing just how their money was being spent. A good example of how not to do it is the saga of the Seaward Way level crossing, which, it now transpires, was the reason for the line not reopening last summer, like many other lines, but at the time was kept very quiet.
    In a previous job, my boss told me he was always having his employees coming to him asking for a pay rise because they needed more money, they had just had another baby or something like that. He would then explain to them that he was already paying them what he thought they were worth to him, what they needed was neither here nor there. If they wanted more money, they would have to do something different so that they were worth more money, such as taking on some management. The Plc is acting like this; they are saying "pay us more money because we need more money", they are not offering to do anything differently to give the donor a reason to donate more money. The position the WSR is in is no different in reality from any loss-making company looking for an investor, except that most loss-making companies looking for an investor have plans showing how the investment will be used to turn the company around, a list of improvements that are essential, but need an injection of capital to carry them out. We are not getting this from the WSR. All we are getting is the threat of insolvency if we don't contribute. It's like the villain in an old silent movie holding a gun to the head of a pretty young woman he has taken hostage, saying to the bank guards, "Now you throw those money bags over here, nice and slow, or the girl gets it".
     
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  18. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't matter if the volunteers didn't see the "toxic culture", nor the passengers, if the Plc wasn't holding out a £1M begging bowl to those who can see it. Due diligence and all that.
    Certainly, when, many years ago, I volunteered on the WSR, the volunteers had little time for the management and I'd be unsurprised if that was still the case.
     
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  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suspect, and it isn't a criticism of them, that there are many volunteers who are happy just to turn up and do something they find rewarding and have little to do with the management at Minehead or interest with what they do.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Give that man a Mars Bar.:):)
     
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