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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Trident63

    Trident63 New Member

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    For clarity ... the plc's actions re the S&DRT, NOT the S&DRT actions - OK?
     
  2. WSSRTcandidates

    WSSRTcandidates New Member

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    We do not seek to take over the PLC. On this we could not be clearer. Through democratic means, we seek to create a single combined charity where the voice of the members and volunteers is heard, and to which the operating company is accountable. This is entirely within the spirit of John Bailey. Would you kindly stop misrepresenting our motivations.
     
  3. WSSRTcandidates

    WSSRTcandidates New Member

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    Somebody mentioned hustings up thread. So below is our pitch, plain and simple, for those that missed it the first time, and the many other times since. Putting aside the animosity of the last few weeks, perhaps @ickdab would now like to present the alternative view, ideally without reference to personalities or historic baggage, and on behalf of the WSSRT Trustees, as to why it would be in the best interests of the WSSRT to remain as an independent charity. Then we can, at last, have a sensible debate about it prior to the AGM on the 14th November.

    THE PATH TO A SINGLE OVERARCHING CHARITY TO SUPPORT THE WSR – HOW TO VOTE FOR THE 10 WSSRT TRUSTEE CANDIDATES:

    Steam Trust AGM papers have started to hit doormats. Please vote for we 10candidates (item 6) seeking genuine whole-Railway restructure of the WSR. We also support Helen Anson, Matt Jackson and Alan Smithers as worthy candidates. We do not support candidates Steve Williams, Mike Thompson or Geoff Evens.

    Please vote in favour of the two resolutions at item 7. The text of these resolutions is reproduced in full on the AGM agenda. The Steam Trust expressed their support for these in their newsletter No.15 issued earlier this week.

    When not to Vote: If, for any reason you feel unable to vote as your conscience dictates, it is best you do not vote at all.

    Members should vote (for, against orabstain) for ALL the candidates and resolutions.

    There is a general acceptance that we need to build ‘One Railway’ and that the best model is for one sole membership-ledsupporting charitable body to own the Railway assets, with a PLC subsidiary to operate the Railway.
    Those of us standing for election do not believe that the WSSRT can remain outside the proposed new structure, with a continuing focus on museums, education and heritage coach restoration.
    These activities are physically integrated within the fabric of the WSR and form an essential part of the whole.
    Also, the WSSRT is a significant shareholder in the PLC and as such it is hard to see how it can protect that interest from the sidelines.
    We feel that the future interests of the WSSRT are far better served in the coming restructuring discussion with the PLC by being part of a single membership body able to ensure that the combined shareholding allows the voice of the membership to be heard at this critical time. That voice – that combined voice – must be heard. The success of the railway depends upon it. It is the key success factor.


    Please contact us with any questions by emailing wssrtcandidates@gmail.com. You will be assured of a reply.

    If you have any doubts over any aspect of voting and wish to discuss them, please delay completing your voting form until you have heard back from us.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  4. Trident63

    Trident63 New Member

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    Looking at it from the outside (and the continual "The Sun" like headlines and two+ pages of copy which the WSR seems to generate usefully for the steam press and media every month), as I've said niether side comes out of this with any glory, or more importantly to have actually helped the railway. This dispute is about who controls, not the final outcome.

    There are ways of dealing with issues when someone posts something which is wrong. If this was any form of non-WSR dispute where someone did something wrong, then most after an agreement would either shake hands and walk away, or agree to a no further comment/confidentiality clause beyond the agreed external communication. When you place the letters WSR into a dispute, it seems presently to mean (for both sides) that once an apology has been made, that the agrieved party then turns the social media volume upto 110%, and turns the previous "closure" into a grenade which they willfully through back at the other side to continue the dispute. These repetitive and antagonistic actions by both sides support an outsiders view that this is a war of who controls, not about what's best for the railway.

    I think there are some things which we can agree on. The railway needs a new structure to address long term fiscal issues, and a charity holding seems the best way of getting more bang out of fewer incoming bucks. This present dispute is about who and which path the railway takes to that final charity destination - abliet, yet again, in an apparently self-chosen WSR-v-WSR WW2 Stalingrad setting. Yet our hobby/interest faces far more dire issues that that. Sad loss from our WSR railway family by resignation in the past two days of two WSSRT trustee's, but both were in their 70's. These days our hobby - set mainly between 1930 and 1960 - simply doesn't drag-through or appeal to kids raised on Xbox and Japanese sword fighting/Grand Theft Auto, and who father's weren't raised on Mecanno, Lego and Mammod or educated in engineering (in the past 10 years alone, engineering education at degree level has fallen by 70% across the UK - whilst Arts education has increased by 250%). Take the steam railway hobby forward 10 years, and I conclude like many that preservation railways will be closing and merging/being scrapped due to lack of support - both fiscally and man power wise. Current supporters will be sadly gone, and the new will not interested at the required level. Add on top the fact that infrastructure will be older (the Gloucestershire & Warwickshire and the Severn Valley Railway being examples where failed infrastructure required huge cost to solve during a period lacking revenues - the WSR is now in the same position), and that much of our current rolling stock will need completely rebuilding - reframe a Mk1 and/or a buy a new boiler, and if so where are you going to buy the boiler? (The answer for most is Germany, at a cost of £500k and above - that's why RSL&GT/Icons Of Steam took over Crewe and stopped doing third party boiler repairs)

    If you were a young person interested (by some miracle) in railways or engineering, which preserved railway would you join? The one that has an educational, young supporters club and apprenticship scheme which the whole railway community support - or the one where people seem to want to fight each other continually, not about the final outcome, but about who controls the throttle, and hence garners continual negative press?
     
  5. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for the 10 candidates, it appears that you, and presumably others, have been taken in by the trustees' major propaganda coup on this. The Trustees' who resigned did so before @Barrie the Beer issued his letter and, although they issued an apology for the data breach it was an empty apology, as they had done nothing to undo the thing for which they apologised and did not do so until police action was mentioned. Also it was the Trustees' who dragged this into the public domain, as it has been every single time the WSR's dirty linen has been washed in public, them or the Plc. Nothing you have said removes the impression that you are attacking the candidates for defending themselves. I ask you again, how would you have dealt with it, had it been your name and address circulated along with an invitation to the recipients to make their views known to you, leaving you open to having people banging on your door and haranguing you in person? I can think of many ways how the trustee could have handled this discreetly and without fuss, and, more importantly to them, successfully. No-one outside the Trust and possibly NP would have known what was going on and very few would have taken much interest. I can only think of one way that the candidates could have handled matters better and that isn't anything to do with any public laundry.
    Whilst I agree about the ill effects of this on volunteer recruitment, I remain convinced that a railway where volunteer s can have their ID cards removed at the whim of the senior management and one that has no channels for addressing greviances, will also probably struggle to attract volunteers and definitely struggle to retain them. Unless you think that all longstanding posters who appear briefly on this thread to confirm the culture of fear over speaking out that exists on the WSR are all telling porkies, then it seems very likely that volunteer wise, the WSR was going to be facing a shortage, even if none of this had happened.
    Similarly with the problem of attracting grants, where the grant-giving bodies will be looking for an organization that can be relied on to do what it said it was going to do with the money and not either divert it to other uses or cancel the whole thing at the last minute, an organisation that thinks that contracts are worth more than the paper that they are written on.
    What it boils down to is a lack of trust, which the Plc lost before all this kicked off and, ironically, given that Trustees' are involved, has actually been the prime cause of this latest symptom of the WSR Disease. Whilst the candidates and third plan are not perfect, as far as I can see, they offer the best and probably only hope of regaining that trust.
     
  6. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    To answer your last question, when I was a young engineer I volunteered on the WSR. The atmosphere was not great then, over thirty years ago and, after two stints, I didn't go back. I had naively assumed it would all be enthusiasts together. Even today I would be still be prepared to volunteer if it was still my local railway. I'd give it a week and see what the atmosphere was like on the ground, and if I found a great bunch of guys to work with, I'd go back.
     
  7. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    It really depends what it is you possess - common sense, humility, a membership card ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Moderator Message

    Can we all, on this autumnal Sunday morning, just pause for a moment during these really unpleasant interchanges with a few facts that probably need to be restated?
    1. Once again, this thread has run up against the possibility that it may be locked simply because individuals (notice the plural of this word) want to push at the boundaries of what is acceptable and also make personal judgements.
    2. There seems a misguided view amongst some that 'the truth' can only be found on here when actually quite a lot is opinion and, it seems, includes not very informed opinion.
    3. We are picking up that individuals on all sides of the argument are finding it difficult to continue contributing on here simply because of the way that their comments are being treated. That helps no-one.
    4. Apart from the occasional disrupter - who is removed - it is assumed that everyone who posts on here has the interests of the WSR at heart even if they may see the future differently.
    5. Nat Pres is not the vehicle for any change; formal processes do that. So there is no point in sounding off on here when engaging with the groups and processes of the Railway is the only way forward.
    Sorry about the 'grandmothers and eggs' post. Everyone knows this so please respect it and then the thread can add something rather than contribute to something far less desirable.

    Thanks.
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    I betit must have been nice to have had a day out away from all this malarky, hearing and seeing their engine working, something it hasn't been able to do for some time previously, I hope they went away, feeling that she is being well treated and looked after at her new home
     
  10. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    You're not the first to compare this sorry saga to a school playground.

    There are the bullies, the gangs, the name-calling, the instant and escalating responses to any provocation, the "but he/she did it first" excuses, the attention-seekers, and some that encourage ritaliation but do nothing themselves.

    Oh, and then there are usually the quiet ones who you shouldn't trust who are actually doing a lot behind the scenes - for good and for bad. What you see and hear in the playground (this forum) isn't the whole story.
     
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Very true, there are most likily others pulling strings behind the scenes, to preserve their power base, they don't want their pet poodle to turn into an angry snarling rottwiella
     
  12. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    So the information *is* available to people but they have to individually request it from you personally.

    I've heard there are inventions called the "printing press" and the "internet" which allow the publishing of information to large groups of people, therefore making communications far less time-consuming and making organisations looks more open and informative. You might want to look into these innovations - I hear they're quite popular.
     
  13. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Classic! The first two sentences suggest an acceptance of the previous post. The final sentence then totally contradicts that.
     
  14. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Sunday reflections after the last few days of postings

    1 - for the first time Nat Pres which has generally been supportive of the WSR change agenda is on balance turned away from the change agenda but also against the WSR as a whole
    2 - the naivety of postings from the WSSRT candidates . In a Trumpian world this was never going to be an above board fight and yet rather than maintaining the moral high ground you have willingly piled into a playground brawl
    3 - Despite denials to the contrary this is a takeover , it is a takeover of the WSSRT , it is a takeover of the strategic direction of the railway
    4 - in any battle and this is a battle , there is a strategy ,you anticipate the other sides moves and either make your play in advance to nullify or have an effective counter measure . So distracted by the playground brawl I'm afraid own goals go flying in and the broader change message is lost
    5 - the change agenda strength has become its weakness . the #1 error was the person presenting the 14 trustees candidate forms . It created a face , a name for the defence of the status quo to rally against. it is something that has been ruthlessly exploited resulting in the unseemly sight of them despite assurances of taking a step back being in the thick of said playground brawl
    6 - there were always going to be casualties . resignation letters can be done with dignity , or they can be an act of revenge , a grenade to your detractors and so it proved here and the detractors fell hook line and sinker for it

    The Ex6 battle was marked by a wish by those fighting for change to keep the thread open against many cries for closure as it was the one channel that enabled the message to be channelled

    To show you how badly the current change agenda has been handled we have a request to close this thread and it is from the change side

    Now please don't get me wrong , the supporters of the status quo have done nothing to enhance or salvage their credibility and some posters on here have done themselves significant damage and destroyed is probably too strong a word but significantly affected how many years of service to the WSR will be viewed but equally the candidates have done themselves significant harm on this forum too . Whether they can win now feels a moot point

    My position has shifted as I have watched events unfold from supporting the broader change to not caring either way anymore , to almost wanting the PLC to be allowed to run itself to its conclusion
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  15. FrankC

    FrankC Member

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    Ho, ho! :)

    I was trying to be helpful - the next edition of the newsletter will be out soon, and then you can print it off and read it. If you (or anyone else) wants more detail on a particular aspect the offer is still open.
     
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  16. Downline

    Downline New Member

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    In return, would you kindly stop misrepresenting the Bailey report?

    The report makes it quite clear, a new charity, not combine the two existing charities. How difficult is that to understand?
     
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  17. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    With respect, I have just re-read the Bailey Report. Section 5 does indeed recommend a 'new charity'. However there is nothing therein IMHO which specifically argues against the idea that said new charity could not be created by a merger of the two existing charities.
     
  18. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Sorry ,but this is just rubbish so please stop trotting this line out

    this is about a takeover of the strategic direction of the WSR which by default means the operation and the plc
     
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  19. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Just posted on WSR FB site. Noting the final statement (highlighted) I have felt able therefore to copy it here:-

    "This afternoon I have spent time reading through the online discussions and bringing myself up to speed on the WSR current situation. As Vice-chair of the HRA I have no, (or indeed right) to take sides. However, I can confirm that in communications I have had with Mr Pratt the only impression I have gleaned is of a man selflessly dedicated to the WSR with no other agenda. In fact, I can also confirm that all three chairs have behaved with dignity, integrity and unity.
    My overriding impression is that the best chance the WSR has is to back the current governance and give the space needed to allow the Bailey report, (which has no NYMR influence or connection) to be implemented. In my opinion, attempts to eject governance or individuals will delay process and deepen resentment, and thus will increase the very real risk to the future of the WSR.

    Please feel free to copy and paste
    Chris Price
    Vice Chair HRA."
     
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  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The WSSRT Chairman did issue an apology for the data protection issue very soon after the mistake (presuming that it was an honest mistake) had been pointed out. A delay in the further remedial action from the WSSRT Trustees might not have been a cause for great concern if it hadn't been for the reported intimidation of some of the new candidates immediately after they first put their names forward. But, given that earlier intimidation, BtB's additional warning to the WSSRT Trustees was surely justified, if perhaps phrased less diplomatically than it might have been.

    Have any of the "ten" (or whatever is the latest count) done anything else that anyone might perceive as taking them down from the moral high ground to the playground?

    The present strategic direction is unclear but certainly includes throwing out the S&D Trust and several volunteers, and making it generally known that anyone who disagrees needs to keep quiet or leave. A new strategic direction in which all members of the family are valued, and the opinions of the volunteers are taken into account, seems to some of us highly desirable. Likewise desirable is a new structure that can reassure potential donors and awarders of grants, and thus improve the WSR's finances for improving the track and running trains.

    Could Sidmouth please stop trotting out that this is "rubbish" and clarify his own different understanding of true situation?

    Edit: corrected a typo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020

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