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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    While that covers the overall situation I think his line before covers several individual instances...

    "Let's follow; 'tis not fit thus to obey him."
     
  2. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    I’ve removed a couple of posts from this thread. Please do not suggest violence as the answer even in jest.
     
  3. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    Question: Who writes all this on behalf of WSSRT Candidates?

    It would interesting to know please?
     
  4. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    We agree; I assumed the existence of vacancies. If no vacancy exists, no one is capable of fulfilling that role, by definition.


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  5. QB Cook

    QB Cook Guest

    Why would you think that statements are written "on our behalf"? We all contribute and consensus leads us to the final draft.
     
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  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    It is perhaps revealing that the idea of consensus and working together is not considered to be a normal way for a group of people to work together.
     
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  7. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Do you always judge a book by it's author?
     
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  8. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Ah you mean teamwork, certainly seems to be an alien concept in some parts of the world.
     
  9. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    John, thanks for your reply. As others have said from a technical legal perspective you are right, my views were stated from a cultural concept viewpoint not a defined legal view.

    The Volunteer journey from entry to full engagement and into an ongoing great joint relationship with any heritage railway and its people should be seamless, easy and welcoming for any Volunteer. Any legal constraints such as the legal definition of the word ‘right’ in this context are for the management to deal with and overcome. It’s a part of being in management these days, they must work through and mitigate a complex set of issues.

    For example if we were instead to say that any Volunteer should have no barriers to be able to engage with the WSR in any way they choose, then that in effect says they have a ‘right’ to come and volunteer without using the word if a solicitor doesn’t like the word. The outcome is the same but the management have mitigated the risk you describe. Of course there are other barriers for example me to become a Driver (as I was doing), medicals, tests, assessments, etc. etc., these are ‘non-negotiable’ of course for safety reasons and may stop anybody doing what they want.

    Your example of generating a situation of accidently implied employee rights being accrued by Volunteers due to poorly worded Policies is a case in point. It’s something that was one of the many changing reasons cited to me for removing the HR Policies back in early 2019. It was said that due to this technical risk of a Volunteer making a claim for full employment rights, the Volunteer HR Policies would have to be removed, it was at the same time as I was raising a complaint against another Volunteer for bullying and was just one of a number of reasons in a row given to tell me why I couldn’t (I did in the end, and it’s still outstanding).

    But to pick up on your valid point. Because the WSR HR Policies are all together for both and apply equally to both Paid & Volunteer staff, it could in theory be claimed that Volunteers have the same employment rights as paid staff by a clever Barrister in a court case. Additionally because all WSR policies refer to Volunteers and paid staff as ‘staff’ it could also be claimed Volunteers also have the same rights as paid staff. It’s a very technical and theoretical point, but you are right to bring it up. It’s the management’s job to protect any business from as many risks as possible and its somebody like the HRA’s job to help with supporting their members in this as well, so I’m not belittling your point.

    My point is simple, a positive, can do culture of management should resolve the issue and not use it as a reason for not doing things. For example duplicating the policies between staff and volunteers and having two sets which in effect say the same thing (because a paid driver and a volunteer driver need the same Polices to protect all and satisfy the SMS), one for paid staff and one for volunteers, removes the connection and an inference that paid staff and volunteers are the same, and using a different word for Volunteers than ‘staff’ would also do the same.

    One thing is clear, management just saying we can’t have any HR Policies for Volunteers because we don’t want to infer any employment rights isn’t the right answer because your SMS is in part potentially defective and that’s a bigger issue. Nobody said management was easy but its management’s role to drive the culture toward a positive can do one where volunteers can engage on their terms as opposed to just saying ‘we can’t do that because we can’t be bothered to overcome a legal technicality’ or worse just because it suits a separate argument.

    I’m back to Culture, a positive, can do one where management work hard to ensure their ‘customers’ in Volunteers are allowed to do what suits them, when it suits them, whilst taking into account and mitigating all risks has to be the way forward. Its not easy but management need to be good enough to cope with the demands a business places on them across all, sometimes contradictory demands, whether they are themselves Volunteers or not. Nobody said it was easy !!!
     
  10. WSSRTcandidates

    WSSRTcandidates New Member

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    The person actually hitting the keys on the keyboard to make these posts is me, Dave Horton, one of the ten candidates. However, as Dee and others have said, everything we put out through this channel and others (e.g. Facebook) has been agreed in advance by the ten of us. Normally by exchange of e-mails or the odd Zoom call or two.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Like Tom in his post above, I have little knowledge of the intricacies of employment law. However, whilst we often say and consider that there should be no distinction between those who volunteer and those who get paid to work on the railway, the reality is that there have to be many differences. Anything that can be construed as a contract of employment or similar obligation has the potential for coming back and hitting the railway in a big way, as John Bailey suggests. I believe that there are precedents to this. Thus volunteers must be considered outside employment agreements and not included in them, however sensible it might seem when viewed at a distance.
    I'm sure that there ae others on here who can give either say I'm wrong or give chapter and verse on the matter.
     
  12. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    As they have all appended their names at the end of the statement, one would assume that it is a joint enterprise.
     
  13. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    Without getting inio the realms of employment law, it is perfectly feasible to have both volunteer and paid staff operating under the same Company Code of Conduct document. Any transgression would then be dealt with via the contract of employment for paid staff, or membership rules for volunteer staff. This system seems to work quite well in a number of heritage organisations.

    Andy
     
  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    There do, and I don't diminish their importance - in my work, I sometimes come across the challenges associated with having a mixture of employees and contractors, or UK passport holders and those here on work permits; dealing with the subtleties within a single team is often demanding.

    But that isn't a reason not to have a policy, or to follow a structured approach to dealing with issues. Early in my career, I was taught the old saw that "good fences make good neighbours". The situation @Andy Norman describes is one in which something happened, which was governed by a policy. When he acted, that policy was withdrawn and no action taken. It doesn't take much imagination to see how that could have been made worse, and with it the liability of the railway, by that absence of a policy under which it could be handled resulting in lawyers becoming involved. Some intelligent drafting could easily have mitigated the risk of creating implied employment rights, and clearly defined the status of a volunteer within the organisation, as @Andy Williams highlights.
     
  15. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Dave
     
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  16. Triumph 2500S

    Triumph 2500S Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the statement of fact Dee
     
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That implies one is the Messiah. The WSR seems rather better at producing very naughty boys.


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  18. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    That is one grim proposition for the WSR.
    If that is all the various factions are achieving and have to look forward to then to save a lot of time and money the receivers/auctioneers just as well be called in now!
     
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  19. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Thanks Andy. I hope my original post made clear that the absence of a right to volunteer shouldn’t imply that volunteers can be treated with disdain. They need to see evidence that they are valued and will be treated fairly and with respect. That’s not because of any legal underpinning. It’s just eminent good sense helping encourage new volunteers and retaining established ones.
    I’m privileged ( and I really do look at it that way) to volunteer on two heritage railways where that attitude prevails.
    Ideally what is expected from both volunteer and the organisation they work for should be set out in a handbook or similar incorporating a means of addressing situations where, an employee, disciplinary process might be called for. That should ideally be tailored to the non employment relationship rather than trying to apply a common HR process. For instance suspension during investigation of an alleged breach of the rules may be reasonable for an employee but is a form of instant punishment for a volunteer regardless of fault.
    If things go wrong I would be looking for a process that enshrines objective assessment and starts from the premise that ways should be found to retain volunteers wherever possible.
     
  20. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Given that apparently the policy was still in effect at the time of the alleged incident(s), then surely its subsequent removal does not invalidate its application at the time and therefore the complaint should be processed regardless?
     

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