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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Ah, I did find the wording on their website about membership numbers a tad confusing...

    104 new members at S&DRT v 70 at WSSRT


    Yet it's a member of the WSSRT Board that is invited, supposedly in a personal capacity, to join the plc Board.

    This announcement doesn't say it's in a personal capacity, indeed it very much suggests the opposite
    http://www.wssrt.co.uk/2020/06/18/plc-director-appointment/
     
  2. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Isn't the suggestion from multiple people, which I have responded to, that there be a new organisation to replace the WSRA & WSSRT ?

    The plc can be reformed, but if you scrap it then everything goes.
    The legal entity that is the plc holds all the necessary contracts & permissions, which would be lost & voided if it went.

    Or, you end up in a fight over who should have the lease, the LRO, etc.
     
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  3. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

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    How many is too many?
     
  4. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    And I'm still wondering why the S&DRT are treated as the naughty boy standing in the corner.
     
  5. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    For the proposed restructuring to be a success there will have to be a willingness and desire
    on all parties.

    Previous suggestions that the Plc should cease to exist appear bizarre.

    The primary purpose of the new charity would be to ensure the preservation of an
    operating 'Heritage! Railway.

    A priority is therefore to have an operator. The Plc with 40+ years experience is
    clearly the one (as an aside referring to recent posts the Plc overall has a good
    H&S record). The majority of its staff ( volunteers) are perfectly happy with
    their current reporting positions, training etc. ( that is not to say this cannot
    be improved, but I suggest better in this case to build on something that works,
    rather than start from new )


    The Plc ( ie its shareholders) need to agree . Ideally the shareholders would vote
    to become part of the Charity ( WSR's new subsidiary operating company )

    Why would the Plc shareholders agree to this? Hopefully because they love the WSR,
    but in case this is not enough ! : dependent on the number of shares an individual
    or group hold, they might be offered e.g. life membership of WSRNEW, two years
    Membership etc., retain whatever travelling rights they possess etc.

    WSR Ops ( as it says on the tin) would operate and run the Railway ( whether works,etc
    would remain as part of WSR Ops or be spun off as a separate entity is an important
    detail.)

    What about the WSRA and WSSRT ( I assume DEPG, S&DTrust etc would simply
    retain their existing relationship, but transferred from the Plc to WSRNEW )

    I think the WSSRT because of its specific remit might elect to remain separate (
    whether it in return for its large shareholding in the Plc sought a permanent
    WSRNEW Trustee position is an important , but for later detail )

    The WSRA Membership, led I hope by its Trustees would enthusiastically join
    WSRNEW.

    There are of course alternative routes. The Plc could remain as a separate
    Operating Company, with its shareholders, contracted to work for WSRNEW
    ( whatever happens the Plc are the only body recognised by the ORR etc to
    operate trains )

    The legal niceties are complex ie effecting the changes, but the concept of
    Charity with operating/ trading subsidiaries is reasonably straight forward.

    The major advantages I believe, ( it certainly is not the destruction of the Plc
    as apparently wished for by many on this forum) are inter alia the establishment
    of a new entity charged with promoting THE Railway, ( hopefully not regularly
    shooting itself in the foot ), marketing ( different from sales ) and fund
    raising,

    Meanwhile, to repeat the oft repeated mantra, the Railway ( and that currently
    is the Plc ) has to survive 'Covid'

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  6. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    I think everybody’s solutions I have seen here all end up in the more or less the same place it’s just how to get there and that can be via a couple of different routes. I personally have learned a lot from comments here about different ways of doing things and how others are structured which has altered my thinking, so thanks from me.

    It’s great that different people, some who know the WSR and some who know other railways give their views, that’s what it’s all about, talking, team work and finding the best way forward given the starting point the WSR finds itself in (which is highly likely to change soon). It also shows people are happy to spend their time trying to help to fix the WSR going by peoples time spent writing here, I think that’s very positive.

    I’ve given my views, others have given differing ones and its working through what has the best chance of being successful to come up with a way forward. I can see a way where the existing structure could stay in the very short term but change itself from within.

    The merging of the WSRA & WSSRT has been discussed, when I looked at it in 2018 with representatives from both the WSRA & PLC Boards in relation to large scale grant funding (one charity is a pre-requisite, non-negotiable for them) we discussed putting the WSSRT within the WSRA as another above has suggested as a ‘department’ in itself.

    That would allow the WSSRT to continue to do as they want to do with museums, coaches, etc. nearly unaltered, because it’s important that they as volunteers be allowed to continue to volunteer in the way they wish to and keep their independence. That would allow the WSRA to be for the outside world ‘the one charity’ and they could focus on large scale grant funding and volunteers. There is in fact not much overlap between the WSRA & WSSRT operationally. At the time the PLC FD/Director who I was working with on this felt the ‘paperwork’ to achieve this would take about 6 weeks.

    If the 8% shareholding of each charity were then combined in would in a stroke give the new ‘overarching charity’ the majority shareholding it needs just by default. The PLC would then need to take its place as the operating company who take the strategic direction and oversight from the charity. The PLC’s current dominance is in fact ‘mythical’ as it’s recently just jumped into a power vacuum and taken over control so nothing structurally would stop a ‘power shift’ other than people’s opinions.

    Then put in place the PDG so the family groups have engagement, some good governance, new culture, real community engagement etc. etc. and its change without risking the LRO or closing the WSR anymore than it is, plus the new structure would allow larger grant funding (where else is large sums of money going to come from ?).

    Whether you changed the names of each organisation or not it wouldn’t make much difference operationally.

    The two issues are:

    1. For this to happen it would need people from all three Boards to firstly want to do it and then agree many (if not all) would need to step aside and allow new blood to come in, a ‘clean sweep’ of people to ensure the old rivalries are dead and buried and the above actually happens. Is this likely to happen given the personalities in place on all three boards?

    2. This supposes that the money doesn’t run out first and the WSR just goes bust.

    As I see it the four alternatives are,

    1. Do the above (or a close variation of) immediately and with full genuine commitment from all.

    2. Invent another Charity as per the other suggestions above and re-structure that way into an overarching charity and an operational company.

    3. Just carry on as it is, one of two things will happen, the current PLC could be successful and they keep the WSR going or the WSR closes and then just let it go.

    4. Let it all fall over, risk the LRO (there are differing views as to how much the LRO is actually at risk) and then rebuild anew from the ashes.

    The choices will need to be made very soon or the choice could be taken for the WSR when the bills stop being paid.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  7. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    reflecting on all of this the crux of this and the previous discussions it fight over the heart and soul of the railway

    Other lines seem to be able to achieve a better balance between the support organisations and the operating entity , with all pulling in a singular direction for the greater good and future success of the railway

    the last few years has seen a dominant vision emerge that is not one all can follow and this is about control

    to try and summarise where I see the current WSR vision

    1 - Classic Great Western Railway holiday line using appropriate motive power and rolling stock
    2 - operating model similar to the P&DSR - more commercial
    3- All control centralised in the PLC (enables a commercial model)
    4 - All non operating fund generation through the PLC , free cash to spend as needed
    5 - Compliant support organisations
    6 - Limited third party ownership - Freehold acquired

    just to reassure the chairman and Nat Pres members who may feel I have it in for the railway (I haven't) , 1 is a perfectly laudable aim , just maybe not at the exclusion on none GWR power
    2 whilst maybe feasible I know some have reservations
    3,4,5 are the major stumbling block
     
  8. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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  9. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

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  10. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Is this 'new' revenue, or is it already accounted for under an existing contract?

    It's good to see extra revenue sources, long term contract?
     
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Details....details....!
     
  12. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    A long running existing contract. In the back of my mind I have a feeling its a WSRA contract, its certainly on WSRA owned land (not SCC leased land), however I could be wrong and of course it could be that the contract was transferred across with the rest of WSRA Promotions on 'the invoice'. So I'm not sure where the revenue goes.

    It is good to see a small part of the WSR back in action. As Steve says, another one in today, when NR are in full swing relaying track in the area they do come in once a day and its an impressive train when you see it unloading.
     
  13. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

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    Commercial matters never discussed in detail here. The WSR gains financially with every such train that has arrived since 2008.

    Steve
     
  14. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    it is positive news , and good it generates revenue for the railway

    had the need arisen , could it have run in the last 13 weeks of lockdown ? I suspect the answer is yes

    here is why I get less excited ....
    it runs on a very short section of the WSR currently not in use for passenger traffic
    secondly it feels that from your excitement about it that it is so remunerative and good, passenger trains need not be run which is counter intuitive to the need of the WSR . we are also of course a heritage forum so a shed on a ballast rakes is maybe not the peak of our excitement

    thirdly
    KWVR have been storing Pacers , SVR stock for LSL , MNR new stock for East Anglia . These are all commercial activities which help support the broader heritage objectives of the railways
     
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  15. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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  16. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Ohh, so very well done to whomever arranged that contract
     
  17. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

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    I sense you don't share my enthusiam ;)

    Well, I don't think it could have run in the last 13 weeks as the WSR was initially totally closed off. It is not relevant anyway as there was no NR campaign in the area as there now is. Hence the need for the WSR to do the paperwork, infrastructure checks and provide pilots.

    It runs on a bit of the WSR that has seen more passenger trains than I suspect you are willing to accept is the case. None of the WSR is currently in use for passenger traffic. As for a "short section", how long does it have to be before you will accept is as worthy (these trains are running over a longer distance than, say, the NVR are planning to do next month).

    Your "secondly" comment is rather silly. From what I have posted here, when did I say this service was "so remunerative and good" that "passenger trains need not be run". You seem to be making it up!

    And as the WSR is a heritage railway, it is, just like your examples of 'Pacer' etc storage, perfectly entitled to seek alternative income. We WSR types are often "advised" to expand non-heritage activities to bring in extra revenue. Good grief.

    I'm not asking you to get excited over a "shed on a ballast rake". I would hope the sight of a revenue-earning train on one of our heritage lines would be good news.

    Finally, I am grateful for your list of other heritage railways who have been accepting stock for storage during the lockdown.

    Steve
     
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  18. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    I have seen no evidence of anyone wishing for destruction, quite the opposite in fact. The wish is for the plc to stop the endless cycle of self-harm that is damaging to all parties. That requires some drastic action in the face of some individuals stating that we should provide the plc with the means to continue. If we keep doing the same then the outcome will always be the same up to the point where everything implodes.

    You are forever reminding us of what you once did for a living so I would expect that your experiences would agree with the above hypothesis.
     
  19. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Sheds along with pacers are about the low point of my enthusiasm :)

    I am however, as with any preserved line that generates additional revenue pleased to see an additional income source and my comments were in no way criticism of such. Its arrival is good news . Sadly the confidential nature of the arrangements means we are not able to appreciate quite how much . Could someone remind me , is the arrangement also with the association or the plc , and can you remind me if there is a liability for eventual land restoration costs ?

    what I don't concede is that such activity some how constitutes reopening . it isn't the core activity , which is clearly carrying passengers on heritage trains .
     
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  20. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect that revealing the detail would provide a commercial disadvantage to any party but if you consider that the WSRA owns the land and the plc provide the paid conductor / driver then you can probably guess what the revenue arrangement may be. Yes, there is an obligation to restore the land however there is also a way to get around it if for example, it was to be converted to another use.
     
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