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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Correct me if I am wrong but when you are thinking of motive power and coaches that might be appropriate for the Bluebell, given its raison d'être, isn't it fair to say that the options on rolling stock are far greater than locos?

    I say this because it seems that a great deal of energy from the workforce is spent on restoring rolling stock. The LSWR Lavatory Brake (1520) is an example of something that is lovely but took ages to get rolling again. It seems that there are always difficult decisions to make about what is necessary, rather than what is desirable, and my guess is that there will never be a consensus.

    My natural wish to see locos and stock 'in harmony' does make me wonder whether all that is restored should be restored. We have a big building in York for that. It's a nice problem to have unlike something more straightforward like the MHR but it can be a divisive one.
     
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thanks for the feedback. Online with PDF is a difficult one since people could be reading on anything from a phone to a tablet to a laptop, which makes the optimal reading experience difficult to get right for everyone. Plus I'm not a graphic designer...

    For those interested, it is produced in MS Word using a Microsoft template, lightly tweaked, then just output as PDF. Post Covid, I think there will be some consideration of different publications, which might be the time to review format and production. At the moment one per fortnight is pretty well flat out for me (bearing in mind I also have a job that has ramped up in intensity since the start of lockdown) without thinking too much about the future! But I know there is plenty of thinking going on about the future. I guess such things will always evolve as the audience, and their technical capability, evolves.

    Tom
     
  3. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Likewise I am no graphic designer, but in my days as a Green Party Activist I was introduced to the principals of good design.

    So I would say well done, its excellent.

    I do wonder though of there is software that can detect what the document is being read on and optimise it for that device?
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The following is an entirely personal view.

    The aspiration list documented in the long term plan for C&W is massively ambitious - more ambitious I suspect than on any railway:

    BR Standard Mark 1 Steam Stock.
    SR. Bulleid.
    SR. Maunsell.
    Southern Railway non-corridor stock of pre-grouping origin.
    Metropolitan Railway "Ashbury" stock.
    LB&SCR stock from the Stroudley and Craven eras.
    SECR non-bogie stock from the LCDR and SER companies.
    LSWR mixed types of vehicles as are available.
    SECR "Birdcage" set.
    All-Pullman train of 1920s and 1950s cars.
    A train of mainly BR Mk1 specifically for catering purposes.
    A train of vans.​

    The remarkable thing is that we have delivered about half of that. And the frustrating thing is we have delivered about half of it ... In other words, three Maunsells (not 6); four Bulleids (not 6); three LCDR four wheelers (not six ...) So lots of half rakes, which includes essentially half a pre-grouping Southern set. And that is without getting into the whole issue of livery, especially given the stated intention in the LTP that:

    The Railway also aims, by various means, to recreate the three main periods of our railway's history in the south, namely:
    1. Pre Grouping - London Brighton & South Coast Railway (up to 1923).
    2. Grouping - Southern Railway (1923 to 1948).
    3. Nationalisation - British Railways, Southern Region (1948 to mid 1960s).
    So the result is we have an operational collection of tremendous variety, but not necessarily a lot of coherence. It also means operationally we spend a lot of time (probably inefficiently) swapping vehicles around as mainteance requires: I often laugh inwardly when on other threads people talk about the "rakes" or "sets" they have, since such things hardly exist on the Bluebell: you never seem to know what you will get from week to week. Moreover, the pressure of maintenance of such a large fleet in both loco and carriage terms means that matching of locos to carriages is seemingly a distant dream.

    How do you rationalise? It's hard in a large society since there will be many different interests. (There is a poll running on our unofficial Facebook group at the moment canvassing opinions about goods trains, and I'm left thinking - "really? People want that?" but clearly not everyone follows my tastes, just as in locos my ideal fleet is probably rather different from many).

    My personal desire (but I am not in the C&W) would be to see at the very least a focus on completing something, rather than half completing lots of things. At least now from a preservation point of view, because we have OP4 for most of the unrestored carriages, it is more viable to leave projects for decades in the future, without the vehicles further deteriorating. But if I could set priorities, they would be:

    1) Finish off the two Victorian LBSCR 4 wheelers currently in the works. That gives a viable train of six vehicles with brake, 1st, 3rd and wheelchair capacity, albeit mixed LBSCR / SECR. Having a full train means they might get used more, and there is no sense abandoning projects that are 90% complete.

    2) For vintage corridor stock, concentrate on Maunsells and don't do any further Bulleids. (My understanding is that the Maunsells, being pre-war vehicles, are more robust, generally having better timber; the below sole bar maintenance is apparently easier; and they are more attractive vehicles than Bulleids).

    3) The birdcage set

    4) Restore the spare hundred seater incorporating wheelchair access (requires some modification similar in scope to the IoWSR conversion of 2403). Restore one of the Southern railway BY vans to act as a brake. After that, the next logical vehicle would be LSWR 320, which is really an SR vehicle in any case. That is a vehicle very important in Bluebell history, and my feeling is it fits better in an SR non-corridor set than as part of a piecemeal LSWR set.

    5) Finish Pullman car No. 54

    Essentially that gives you:

    - A three car all Pullman dining set, including wheelchair access
    - The Maunsells as your chosen rake of vintage corridor carriages, presumably one converted for wheelchair access
    - A three coach off-peak vintage set of two 100 seaters and the Brighton 1st with BY brake van, as ran for many years around the turn of the millenium, but with wheelchair access
    - A Birdcage set, which can strengthen the off-peak pre-grouping SR set
    - The Mets
    - 6 four wheelers, which can run on their own behind a P / Terrier; or can be used to strengthen the Mets with the combined train within the capability of C / O1 / H / E4
    - Assorted individual oddities, such as the LNWR Obo, GN Saloon etc.

    Any prioritisation means de-prioritisation. So what is de-prioritised? Essentially the Bulleids; the four wheelers (two half rakes rather than two full rakes); the LSWR carriages (which are really just a rag-bag of individual vehicles, not a coherent rake anyway); the Cravens (which would essentially be new build, and would likely get very little use); the LBSCR Director's saloon (would divert too much resource away from higher priorities to provide a low use, low capacity vehicle).

    Glad I'm not making the decisions! But if there was one thing I wish we could do in the new world, it would be to try to do less, but better.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    As you say, lots of different opinions naturally, but it's hard to argue wit the soundness of all that. Still, deciding what sort of carriages to restore over a 100 year period is a nice problem to have, better than looking in the yard to pick out the next Mk1! Even on a railway exclusively operated with Mk1s, C+W decisions on what to restore next, hoe to organise rakes etc. is far from simple.
     
  6. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    If the Bluebell would like to borrow the Bullieds I am sure that could be arranged. The six did look very good together.

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  7. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Not in any way to decry the list Tom put up which would be brilliant to see, but it is probably more like 200 years work at present rates of progress than 100. A heavy overhaul of a mk1 which has the advantage over wooden coaches of being able to live for long periods outdoors, not ideal, but possible, can easily take 2 years. Not many places can do such a heavy overhaul on more than one coach at a time, just standing still with a fleet size of 30 vehicles means you have to complete three per year. Focuses the mind a little.

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  8. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Quite, progress on additional new vehicles only gets slower over the years as the list of vehicles requiring maintenance simply to stand still grows longer and longer.
     
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  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hopefully less than that - but in principle I agree with the thrust of your post. To get to my reduced list from where we are now, it requires completion of two four wheelers (which are in an advanced state of overhaul); three Maunsells (one of which is well advanced, but two require a complete restoration); a Pullman (well underway) and three pre-grouping bogie carriages (all requiring starting). But the devil in the detail is that you have to do all those, while also standing still (i.e. not losing any of) on the current fleet. That has always been the difficulty. The light at the end of the tunnel though is ever increasing ability to store vehicles undercover, slowing down deterioration.

    It is nonetheless a massive task, which is why for our LTP I am advocate of reducing the scope, or at least giving a more explicit prioritisation of member wishes. At the moment, the LTP reads too much like a wish list, not a plan. At best, that means we are nominally committed to things that will conceivably never occur. At worst, it results in too much dilution of effort, and also complaints when the "they department" choose project A over B from an unprioritised list, at which point everyone complains "but we really wanted B". In which case, we should say so rather than moan at the they department for delivering A.

    How to achieve consensus is another issue. I do think across preservation in general there is often a poor understanding of the opportunity cost of doing certain projects. Coming back to @torgormaig initial point about how we could have a Birdcage set now if we hadn't done the four wheelers - I suspect that is true. So the decision in the late 1990s / early 2000s to concentrate on four wheelers was every bit as much a decision not to prioritise the vintage bogie carriages - but I suspect wasn't portrayed that way in many people's perceptions.

    (Descends from soap box - personal view as always).

    Tom
     
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Really? Is that normal? Ignorance showing here. Presumably that is not a team of say six working continuously?
     
  11. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    We tend to reckon 18 months for a major restoration/overhaul/rebuild with all volunteer labour on the GWSR.
     
  12. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Running such vehicles is a part, a goodly part, of what a museum railway should do if it is to be any more than a "heritage" railway. They illustrate the void between first and third class travel in the mid to late Victorian era.
    If this gets done then great. Once done up then it has to be used and not just on special events days(!)
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’ve yet to see that short of a newspaper app, which gets rid of the constraint of having to look like a printed page. Even page reader applications aren’t great at rendering a document - and I doubt they’re available free, which is where Word spitting out to pdf is excellent.


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  14. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    On the point of the LBSCR directors saloon, I've often felt that what that vehicle really needs is a designated owning group (either purchased from the railway or on long-term lease) which can undertake work away from the main queue. It's undoubtedly a vehicle of extreme preservation value, and would be the sort of carriage which could (at least partially) earn it's own way in the same way as the GNR saloon does, and I very much doubt there'd be a shortage of people who would be interested in chipping in time / money "off the books" of the railway. Mind you I also feel similar about 488.
     
  15. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    It obviously depends, but if you do all the door pillars, crash pillars, rigger plates, all pins and bushes, horn guides, springs, Buckeyes, drop lights, window corners, window drains, the body side brackets, toilet floors, wiring, steam heat, recover the seats, repanell the interior paint the exterior and a myriad of other jobs...then doing that takes time. The average seems to be 2yrs + around different railways

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  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's not an obligation for every railway to show that though, only if they so choose, and if it's possible. It would be totally inappropriate altogether on the GWSR or GCR for instance as there weren't many 4 wheel coaches left when those lines was built! The museum bit implies that some sort of cohesive story is put together IMHO, not simply a mandate to run as many random old carriages as possible. From a heritage point of view, a mixed rake of Bulleids and Mk1s hauled by a light pacific could be said to more "authentic" than a hodge-podge of 4 wheel carriages from different railways strung together hauled by an SECR loco on a LBSCR line. That's not to take anything at all away from the Bluebell's 4 wheel stock, which individually are all sublime, or SECR haulage (perish the thought! :eek: ) but I'm afraid you've got your blinkers on again Paul.
     
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  17. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Not on a branchline it couldn't
     
  18. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    I hope we are not going down that " My railway is more authentic than yours" rabbit hole again
    As regards restoring coaches, i think that any coach restoration no matter what type seems to take about 2 years to do a proper job, yes it can be done quicker if you have either already overhauled bogies, or wheel sets, rebushed brake gear, a set of freshly upholstered seats waiting to go in, but very few railways have that degree of forward planning, as if your talking a former grounded body, it all has to be made, but this is all highly specialised workmanship, not everyone can sow up a set of seat cushions, it all has to be done to be ready when needed.
    A vintage rake, tastefully done, is an asset, as are every coach, its bums on seats that pay the bills, butt having a vintage rake, does give you a glimpse of turn of the century travel, except, unless its slatted wooden seats, the seats your sat on will be more comfortable with more padding than what was provided in Victorian times.
     
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  19. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    35005 or 34105 or 76017 or 73096 or 45379 or 41312 or 30850 or 30925 or 30506 with a train of mk1s or wagons are all completely authentic and in many cases actually not just representative of a type or class, but actually ran....over the Mid Hants.

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  20. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Mid-Hants is one of the relatively few places which can "get away with it".
     

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