CMEs of the 20th Century

Following down a Wikipedia rabit-hole last night, I started looking at the dates of CMEs in UK railways (excl NI).

All were born in the 19th C that I could find (incl Riddles), with one quasi-exception (not a CME, didn't have an engine attributed to him, but sort of does). I assume it should be easy for NP to work that out.

But are there any 20th-C born designers of working locomotives?

 

I guess with the position of CME being abolished on BR it in the UK would make it unlikely that anyone would hold that position.

Most preserved lines do have CMEs, but very few do much designing of new engines.

In terms of loco designers - Livio Dante Porta (21 March 1922 – 10 June 2003) strikes me as an obvious one. Phil Girdlestone?

Have you had a look at this? https://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/modernsteamlocos.htm

Also if you look at the P2 website and who is who, who would be the CME?

https://www.p2steam.com/the-team/

For example, Daniela Filová seems to do a lot of the design work but I guess she would seem to be more head draughtsperson rather than a CME.

 

Fascinating - I had not seen that site. I will read with interest, and not the take I was expecting on my post, so also thank you

My choice of the word "working" was an attempt to avoid the whole new-build thing. Also, I was thinking CME in the somewhat restricted view of the "man whose name is on the steam engine".

I find the career paths of CMEs interesting. In generational terms, steam locomotive engineering came and went in not that many generations. To think that Ivatt, who penned austere modern engines was born in the height of ornate steam engine design puts the generational shift in context. The career paths are interesting - the fact that Thompson is a Cambridge man is another thing to hold against him, sorry, interesting by its exceptionalism. Even Riddles was an apprentice man, so to the very end, steam was being drawn by men with non-academic backgrounds and Victorian births.

It also shows the meteoric rise of Gresley compared to all around him.

(is anyone going to guess the 20-th C one?)

 

How much designing, as opposed to basic specifying did the CMEs do? Stanier based himself at Euston, the Loco Drawing Office was at Derby, the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Offices were where? Harry Wainwright was a Carriage man, and the Loco work was done by Robert Surtees. Hamilton Ellis wondered how much designing William Adams did, considering the similarity of this early LSWR engines with Beyer Peacock's.
Considering the totality of the CME 'Empire', the relatively low number of new builds as compared with overhauls, the responsibility for the Works (Main and outstation), materials procurement, &c., &c. how could they have 'designed' anything?
Pat

 

I can't find his birth date, but apparently J.F. Harrison joined the GNR in 1921, I'd guess at around 18-20 given his educational background, and the Duke is often attributed as much to him as anyone.

 

You are indeed right, it was a bit of a "line in the sand" point.
JOOI, were any of them born in the 20thC?


I find it fascinating to think that (unrebuilt) Bullied Pacifics,Ivatt 4MTs, and 9Fs were "designed" by people who are Victorian by birth

 

If the rebuilding of the Bulleid Pacifics come within this category, then Ronald Jarvis born in 1911 would be a contender.

 

Jarvis was the one I was thinking of.

 

What about Kenneth Grange?

The other thing is that BR diesels tended to be known by their builders ie EE, Brush, Sulzer, and not attributed to an individual

 

I like her, she comes across really well in the videos and presentations I've seen her do for the P2 trust. Regarding CME's though would Terry Miller (Mr HST) count?

 

Doesn't Terry Miller epitomise the situation of CMEs in principle ? AIUI terry Miller headed a team that worked on specific areas which were melded together within the team and presented to the world as a team effort. Similarly CMEs would draft a specification and the team within the drawing office would draw the relevant portions which would be assembled and presented in total to the workshops to fabricate and assemble. There is the example of Gresley who specified a Bo-Bo electric locomotive in 1936 and presented it to Metropolitan Vickers to design and build thus resulting in the Class EM1 / BR 76 whilst Henry Fowler specified a 4-6-0 to North British Loco in 1926 which subsequently designed and built the original Royal Scots.

 

Hmmm, I hadn't really considered diesels (or electric).
I'd say that the Royal Scot were something of an exception, generally the railway would specify much more design and technology detail (hence why the LMS Garratt failed).

When it comes to most diesels, it was very much leaving the detail and control to the manufacturer (with the HST being the converse exception). (Wasn't the 59 driven very much by Foster Yeoman giving BR a spec that BR found impossible, hence they could buy abroad?)

Obviously, Gresley has the B17 as a heavily-outsourced design (and J38/9 was very much a Darlington product), but there was a "Gresley/LNER" design language as he fully understood the implementation of the technology, whereas the BR diesel position was more of the "this is our need, what do you have?" (Wasn't Fairburn the unusually electrically-minded of the CMEs). ie Gresley had control of the drawing office and the solutions they would deploy.

 

When was Col. Howard Hill born? (designer of the USA tank). I can't find much online; the only slight biography states that he was enlisted in 1923 after a railway career that started as an apprentice and lasted at least five years. If he started at 16, he could have been born as late as about 1902 (though also at any time before that), but might just about meet the criteria.

On CMEs in general: it's interesting that railway company CMEs were always named individuals or considerable renown, whereas the designers of industrial locos are largely unrecorded - certainly not well known. Given that new industrial steam locomotives were being produced into the early 1970s I believe, almost certainly there was some chief designer at one or the other of the industrial loco builders who was born well into the twentieth century.

Tom

 

When was the last 'New' Industrial loco design produced?

 

What would constitute a new design? Most seem to be developments of existing designs, rather than a whole new class.

 

Charles Collett says hello

Tom

 

Charles Collett, the Noel Gallagher of engine design.

 

<Python> Yes, but apart from the 57xx pannier, the large prairie, the Grange, the Manor, the Hall, the Castle, the King and the diesel railcar, what did Collett ever do for the GWR… </Python>

 

Two observations:
1. Kenneth Grange was genuinely a designer, vitally responsible for how HST looked, but not responsible for the product as a whole. He therefore doesn't compare with a CME.
2. The BR diesels were genuinely built by those manufacturers in response to a brief, not in the manner of (say) the North British products for the SR and LMS to a railway provided spec.

 

David Wardale was the Assistant CME (Steam) on SAR in the late 70's?