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Liveries!

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 61624, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    The biggest thing that annoys me, hence my remark in my last post about 1948. Is the "slavish" insistence by some of painting/turning everything out only in British Railways colours. I'm not anti per sa, it's just this insistence...... Granted it's difficult if there's just a single locomotive of a given type, for instance Flying Scotsman, if on the other hand there are multiple like the Southern West Country/Battle of Britains then why not turn'em out in the various liveries. So we have Winston Churchill in the dark green BR colours as withdrawn, then 92 Squadron in BR "Sunshine" colours,basically Southern green but lettered British Railways, with Southern style lettering and Blackmore Vale in full blown Southern colours and lettering.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That assumes the owners want their pride and joy to wear the "right" livery to allow that balance across the surviving class members. I've my own views on which liveries are "right", and the choices I'd make about which to use, but they are my views and it is not for me to impose them on someone else. So, however dull I think BR era green was, and however much I'd rather see pre-nationalisation liveries prevail, I acknowledge that it's the right of the Battle of Britain Locomotive Society to decide what they choose to use - fortunately, they've made the right choice;)
     
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think we are from the same generation and it was depressing back in steam day’s trying to get a group together to paraffin down a couple of Bulleid Pacific’s to try and make them look half decent, we weren’t nearly so organised as the MNA up north. How professional railwaymen managed to work in semi derelict surrounding like Nine Elms love got no idea. Having said that I think it was probably down to the pride in the job. When the first preserved locomotive started being restored the thing we wanted was a reminder of that, hence the Bahamas Loco Society overwhelmingly approved the incorrect LMS livery, made worse by Humbrol’s interpretation of LMS Crimson Lake.
     
  4. MattA

    MattA Member

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    Ouch. I think I made a mistake to even ask the question in Nat Pres... I was quite happy to be corrected, but it started a great debate among everyone else which you continue to drag up weeks after the fact!
     
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  5. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I wasn't getting at you, my friend, there is a new generation out there who don't know and look to others for information. It isn't your fault that that information was wrong.

    Apologies for any upset caused; it wasn't intentional. I was merely illustrating a point.
     
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  6. MattA

    MattA Member

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    No worries @LMS2968 , I'm just mortified that I seem to have started WWIII in this thread when I made that mistake!
     
  7. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    No Mate, This livery debate has been going on for years, possibly decades!

    So its seems, anyway.
     
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  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed - over a century :)

    Just to try to pretend this is a railway forum, two pages from the SE&CR loco record book.

    Firstly, for loco 178:

    p-class-178.png

    This shows the dates in and out of shops for an old loco 178. On 25 February 1910, a new loco of class P was released into traffic; subsequently on 29 June of the same year the old loco 178 (by now renumbered, officially if not in actual fact, 178a) was withdrawn.

    This is the same record for loco 323:

    p-class-323.png

    The sequence of old loco being condemned and new one released is slightly different, in that the old loco goes first. But the interest is in the date that 323 is released to traffic, which appears to occur on two dates that are months apart: 26 April 1910 and 16 July 1910.

    As far as the works were concerned, on their main account, the loco was released on 26 April. As far as the traffic department were concerned, they didn't take the loco into traffic until 16 July. In between the Directors had a livery debate ..

    Tom
     
  9. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That can't be - if it was released from works before going into traffic, where was it repainted after they'd reached a decision?
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    In the paint shop - but because it was done on a different account, it doesn't appear in the loco record book ... The first painting was red, paired with three green carriages, which were then compared with the standard green locos and red carriages to decide whether to change.

    Of course, now the damn thing is painted blue ...

    Tom
     
  11. 61648

    61648 Member

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    Ditto
     
  12. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    There was in the early 1980s an article in the FR magazine pondering what would have happened if the FR had been grouped. I think the view was that the Englands would have gone the way of Rheidol and the new locos been smaller versions of the VoR locos, with slate traffic in decline no real need for the Fairlies so withdrawn as life expired. What the LMS would have done is another matter and I can’t remember what was suggested.

    But there is perhaps a topic to kill time, what would have happened if grouping had been different or the railways nationalised in 1918.
     
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  13. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    A locomotive has a ten year boiler certificate and there’s nothing to prevent a Loco carrying more than one livery over that period, providing someone comes up with the cash. A lot of photo charter organisers have done this in the past, something pioneered by Geoff Silcock. For the really pedantic we then get into engine picking and things can then go wrong from an authenticity point. Galatea running as Alberta is wrong as the latter was an earlier short firebox engine. If you take what looks like a standard class with not too many engines , the Duchesses, they had five variations of tender, the destreamlined ones had a different front end with no curved drop plate in front of the cylinders and neither did the last Non streamliners, no 6253 - 55. The two Ivatt examples, 6256/7 were different again but more radically. For some reason 46242, a former streamliner was rebuilt after the Harrow accident with the curved drop plate of the non streamliners, does anyone know why? Add to that the detail differences in smoke deflectors, AWS etc, it’s difficult enough for modellers to get the livery right for a specific point in an engine’s history. The answer is photographs not look at preserved examples.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
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  14. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I don't know the definitive answer but I suspect it was because of the retirement of Tom Coleman; he had been responsible for the 'Utility Front' and had it incorporated from 6253 on. But in 6202's rebuild, the original type drop plates were used and not the Utility Front, so 6242 just followed the same pattern.

    The strange thing is that it was never used on the Black Fives, which were being built at the same time and for quite a while afterwards.
     
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  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    It seems odd as the drop front must have been a bit of a pain for the fitting staff as it had to be taken off to withdraw the valves
     
  16. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    True, but of course that applied to thousands of other locos, one more didn't make much of a difference!

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
     
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  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    So is it just a coat of paint? Frankly, so long as one's not expecting trade vinyl matt white to do too well on a hot boiler..... yes, and that's accounting for whatever other connotations or nuances come with it. AND. Please do note, my post did actually specifically mention misrepresentation. If the claim is accurate representation, then yes .... be as accurate as circumstances allow. No disagreement there.

    And on 'authentic', I'm old enough to remember locos of decidedly indeterminate colour at Waterloo. The abiding memory ain't "green or black", it's "grime" .... and even when it wasn't, the green was often damn near black anyways!

    Remember when the K&WVR and L&H (and others) used 'house colours'? I'd presume you'd sooner have seen living locos in harness than unrestored wrecks, awaiting the possibility of the correct livery? I sure as hell did! So Caley blue looked a bit .... OK, very .... odd on a Fairburn tank? Even if I'd have preferred the honesty of 'L&H' branding to the fib 'CR', so what! Back then, it was a splash of colour on an all-too-rare living breathing steam loco .... and more power to 'em, sez I !!

    Does it grate to see a red '29' carrying a name more appropriate to a 'Big 40', hauling another railway's stock (with the wrong moquette) on a line where no component of the consist set foot during steam days? Yes ..... BUT ..... does the quids from bums on seats resultant of the publicity from such a travesty count for something .... or no? I know what my answer would be.

    Is it acceptable to park one's bum on BR moquette in a chocolate & cream Hawksworth carriage? My first ever meeting with authentic Southern trim was on the IWSR. Back then, even the Bluebell hadn't got round to too much detailed interior work. Of course as much accuracy as possible matters ..... wouldn't claim otherwise .... but I'd sooner see sommat in revenue earning service than rotting away awaiting an ideal outcome, which may or may not happen.

    On my last visit to the Bluebell, was the comment from my companion that a BR standard had no business hauling a Maunsell liveried set? Or was it that there was no heating in the carriage? Go on ..... guess!

    Watching 'The Lost City of Z' (not a bad flick) recently, I admit the sight of a Black 5 hauling MK1's, to supposedly represent a pre-WWI South American train, did send steam escaping from both ears .... but was told, in no uncertain terms, that any spoiling of the film at this point, was the result of my innocent observation, rather than a glaring cinematic faux pas. I'm glad many film and programme makers are paying more attention to such details in recent years (very pleased to note this includes work from across the pond), but the odd real howler still gets through.

    And what's with locos, however correctly liveried, hauling MK1's, of far later vintage, on routes which never saw such classes back in the day? I mean ..... a malachite Nel, chugging up the North Yorkshire Moors? Heresy, I tell you!

    We're fortunate, very fortunate, to enjoy both the number and variety of locos, stock, stations, permanent way and signalling so painstakingly restored and maintained, for love alone. I know many of us recall those dark days with their paucity of heritage operation. Is the end result that we now feel able to be sniffy about matters of authenticity? Like it or not, very few of our heritage lines are run by their founding companies, certainly on std gauge, so it's fair to ask 'are we fooling ourselves'? It's 2020, not 1920. Grouping happened, nationalisation happened, Rheidol tanks were dipped in woad ..... and 323 looks bloomin' lovely in Bluebell blue! Once again, the key question can't be 'authenticity', cos vanishingly little is really truly authentic ..... it's about honesty, about not misrepresenting .... and for our collective sanity, about not kidding ourselves.

    d5b0s7b-f9afe01b-66b7-4420-9738-57920dc97dd6.jpg
    Polar Bear .... Original Railway, pre preservation, ergo "authentic livery"
    [Image courtesy 'Deviant Art' - which somehow seems appropriate!]

    1781-polar-bear-groudle-glen-railway-isle-of-man-tra.jpg
    Just to compensate for the vomit inducing shock of the first photo, here's a much more recent view of Polar Bear.
    [Image courtesy "45 Spaces"]
     

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  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Yes, we are indeed fortunate that such a lot has survived, and that so many people have done a tremendous job within the preservation movement. I appreciate it, but perhaps it's the ex-teacher in me which adds, "Could do better..."

    I also go on a model railway site, although I'm not a modeller (Hornby three-rail doesn't count) and I'm amazed at the trouble and research people modelling in 4mm to the foot scale go to to get things right. Just a shame that those working in 12 inches to the foot scale don't share that viewpoint.
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    ..... which many of us then go and run it run on (scaled) 4'-1/2" gauge track!! :D

    To your old teacher, I'd say "perfection is a goal, likely an unachievable one at that, but definitely not a realistic starting point". I'd cheerfully agree, we could all do better ..... in every aspect of our lives. Getting a tad existential there tho'! :)
     
  20. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    But this is the thing that grates on some of us. Given that everything does need a coat of paint, it is no harder to paint it right than to paint it wrong. It's nonsense to suggest that painting something the right colour would take so long compared to the wrong one that it would still be a waiting "unrestored wreck".
    And to claim we'd hold the early preservation scene to the same standard to which we aspire today is unfair. It was a totally different scene back then, folk were grateful to have something with steam emanating out of it. But we've moved on since then. most railways are charitable organisations, or contain charitable organisations, with an educational remit.

    Of course not, but now you're moving onto different subject matter and trying to lump it all in together. We should aspire to be as authentic as we reasonably can. So if a line had a choice between hiring two different locos, one that would have been seen on the line in real days, one one that wasn't, then all other things being equal they should pick the appropriate one. But we know that rarely if ever happens, ad we accept that railways must keep an eye on the balance sheet, so if something less suitable from a historical point of view comes along that is cheaper and more suitable practically, by size or whatever, then of course you should choose that. But that's where the comparison with authentic liveries breaks down. Because getting it right is just as easy as getting wrong. That doesn't always apply with most of the other examples you give.

    It's acceptable of course, and if that's what was already there when you got the coach and it was fairly presentable an you needed another coach in service, fine. It's better than nothing. If when it came to replacing the moquette because it was life expired the opportunity to replace it with something more appropriate wasn't taken, then that would be a great shame, because once again, getting it right would have been just as easy as getting it wrong.
     
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