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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thats a very long way on an OB!!
     
  2. DragonHandler

    DragonHandler Well-Known Member

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    Dark chocolate. :)

    I've been skinny all my life. :p
     
  3. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Let me simplify for you.
    The cost in wages, heat, light, materials, rentals, national insurance, pension, employers insurance and sundries means that to paint the average Mk1 costs us about £5000. (This figure does include a for little repair work. Also while 100% volunteer effort would reduce this cost wages are only a small part of the total.)

    For clarity no part of this was billed to the WSR plc it was all paid for by the WSRA.
    Hope that helps.
     
  4. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Thank you. This rather emphasises the peculiar set-up of the WSRA having a competing workshop operation.
     
  5. Roland Bushell

    Roland Bushell New Member

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    I`ll ignore the obvious typo, though it is tempting to use it to emphasise my point. Just scan the last few pages of this thread. A number of direct attacks on the integrity of a chairman who despite being in his current position for less than a year has already put more time in than his two predecessors, a discussion about the lack of an appropriate strategy, some questions and answers about the role of the WRSA, comparisons with other heritage railways and their experiences and some examples of what passes for light-hearted banter on Nat Pres these days. All very typical. So some entirely legitimate concerns, some pointless but occasionally entertaining contributions. some poison and some bizarre contributions too. Contradictions? I agree. Inevitable in any debate, though I have to admit `debate' is not exactly the right term for anything on social media really.
     
  6. It was, but there were some entertaining moments during the journey, including some impressive backfiring and the driver's wiper arm falling off in heavy rain!
     
  7. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    Had a similar experience back in the 60s in a Mk1 Cortina going up Wimbledon hill in heavy rain. anyway back to the choo choos.
     
  8. Anne C-B

    Anne C-B Member

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    The reasons for and ramifications of the extension were openly explained and discussed at the PLC EGM earlier in the year and bear little in relation for your statement.
     
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  9. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Roland, Welcome to Nat Pres. I assume you are the same Roland Bushell as leads the Minehead Rail Link Group ? For what it’s worth I think Social Media can and does help generate debate, as the MRLG know well as you use it extensively to push your case forward, one person’s legitimate concern is another person’s pointless contribution but all are valid surely.

    It’s true that passions run high on here sometimes, but it’s because people care and that energy is important, again as the MRLG know. Personally I have learned many things from contributors on here including people from other railways.

    The issue currently with this part of Somerset is in my opinion that not enough debate takes place and not enough opinion is considered in a way that can help all in what should be a Community Railway. The underlying theme here is not if the current PLC Chairman spends a lot of time on the WSR (I will be the first to recognise he has put a lot of effort in) it’s about how everybody works together, compromises for the good of the WSR and all focus on working toward the WSR’s Primary Objective without letting their own needs get in the way.

    In order to take the heat away from the current PLC Board for a moment both the WSR & MRLG have for a number of years ‘butted heads’, each with their own objectives and each polarising their views with every conversation. It’s my view (only of course my own personal opinion) that currently the WSR sees the MRLG as a bunch of dreamers who want to stop heritage trains running and turn the WSR into a Commuter line and the MRLG sees the WSR as a bunch of dreamers who are stuck in the 1950’s and don’t see the need for a Commuter line in a changing world of transport and environmental issues.

    At some stage a decent conversation and debate (here or anywhere) can be the only way forward or you will just continue to butt heads until one of you gives up and the other says, “we won”. The same could be said for the PLC, WSRA & WSSRT as nobody gives ground with all saying “we are right and the other person is wrong so we tried, it’s the other persons fault” and nothing changes and Rome continues to burn.

    For the record I actually think the MRLG have a point which is worth debating and considering. As in part a commuter route maybe good for the WSR in the longer term. If the financial investment and need for a commuter route is there and if it gains sustainable funding, why not do both. Re-instating Kensford and Leigh Loops & re-doubling MD-DR increases the daily line capacity so all trains could run heritage & commuter, the WSR would have access charges to help its failing business model, the WSR could own/run the DMU stock to Taunton on a commercial basis and everybody could benefit in the longer term and stay relevant to a changing future community need. Things like line speed, etc. are issues which need thinking through of course, but the idea has potential

    You mention that comparisons with other Heritage Railways aren’t relevant but just look at what’s happening at Swanage with exactly this model, it may well be a future for many others as well ?

    In my opinion it needs more open and honest debate not less, no one person or group has all the answers or is going to win alone and all in the community need to feel involved or they will stop engaging, and that’s what’s lacking in this part of Somerset currently. Less war, more talk !!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A fascinating and insightful post from @Andy Norman, though on the sort of timescales we're realistically looking towards, there's a potentially large fly in the ointment (OK .... several, but this is a biggie). Diesel power. Whilst exemptions from emission controls may well be agreed for purely heritage use, even the current stringent controls on new ICE are liable to be insufficient in even the medium term (a couple of decades). Tolerance of regular operation 60 year old 1st gen kit, with appropriate safety modifications, may not raise too many eyebrows today, but the investment required to make it happen needs to be balanced against the increasing likelihood of outright prohibition in the not too distant future.
     
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  11. Roland Bushell

    Roland Bushell New Member

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    Thank you for your friendly greeting! I have been an interested observer on this forum for some time, but have hesitated to contribute as I simply do not have the knowledge or background that most members clearly possess. But I live in Minehead, support the railway, and feel increasingly I should contribute to discussions when able to, and to the railway whenever possible. I did have connections to the rail link group up until 2 years ago, but withdrew my support after finding myself disagreeing more than I would have liked with some members viewpoints, and behaviour.

    I disagree with one of your interpretations of my earlier comments - I do believe there is great deal to be gained from inter-railway comparisons. I actually visit Swanage at least twice a year and even relocate the family to the Pines in Swanage for our Christmas break and the December timetable. I`m obviously a big fan, and regard the Swanage and NYMR as models of good practice in every sense.

    I would certainly be interested in hearing more about your views on strategic priorities for WSR. Re-doubling and reinstating the two loops you have referred to above, and developing a commuter friendly model over time echoes my own views. Additionally I feel reducing capacity in the short term and developing Williton as a steam/commuting hub, with limited steam from BL even in high season may be the most cost-effective option for any new player with deep pockets.

    Fully agree with your final comment - it is all about co-operative effort. Since moving to Somerset 4 years ago I have been somewhat surprised by the polarisation and remarkably unpleasant attitudes to be found in local politics and local community groups. I suppose that isn`t so unusual these days, but it does get in the way somewhat. I am looking forward to attending the December AGM though and just hope it doesn`t coincide with my family Christmas break!
     
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  12. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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  13. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Thanks for the reply and for correcting me on the points you mention. If you have the time please read the Southern Gateway Consultation response paper I sent in 2017 I’ve attached it in my post #12750 on page 1088.

    This was in response (as requested at the time by the WSR) to the Southern Gateway Project. The WSRA has bought about 6 acres of land at the rear of Bishops Lydeard right next to the Station, and the project to develop that was called 'Southern Gateway' but its now dormant.

    The reply I made sets out many of the things you mention about loops, Williton development and other things to offer customers more than just ‘the one product’. Its contents align as much with a Community use as a Commuter use and includes some more ‘Commuter’ options at the Norton end of the line taking into consideration the housing developments there and future transport needs.

    Regarding the Loops being re-instated, its long been discussed and if memory serves #Mansuell1907 (Michael) set out in a post on here a while back the exact increase in train numbers/timings along the line if the loops and re-doubling were completed as he’s an expert on such matters.

    I’ve also set out my views regarding external funding in the last few pages but happy to expand on any of my thoughts if you have any questions. All of this stuff is not all my thoughts, it’s pulled together from many, I mention a few working WSR experts at the bottom of the Consultation response who helped me at the time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The issue of re-instating loops frequently arises on this thread. I must admit that, for a line with a major backlog of capital investment in infrastructure to make, I am distinctly sceptical of the benefit. (As against, say, spending the same capital expenditure bringing the existing p/way back up to standard).

    The advantage of additional loops seems to be the ability to run more trains, and maybe tighten up timings. But running more trains is expensive: not just the fairly small matter of additional direct running costs (coal, water, oil etc.) but the far more fundamental issue that a more intense service requires more locos and carriages to service it.

    You can't sustainably run more trains without a major expansion in engineering capacity to service more locos and carriages. That applies whether the trains are full of paying passengers or not - no point adding additional capacity to haul empty seats around.

    So the crux of the issue is passenger numbers: the general impression I get is that the WSR (in common with quite a number of other railways) is basically flatlining in passenger numbers. So what confidence do you have that increasing numbers of trains will result in a significant upswing in passenger numbers?

    I appreciate the desire to try to expand out of a downswing. But increasing line capacity has a lot of hidden impacts in loco and rolling stock provision (not to mention daily volunteer numbers); it wouldn't be high on my list of essential capital investment all the time an annual middling six figure sum is needed on the p/way just to stand still.

    (Musing on timetables: I sometimes wonder whether the desire to run a "clockface" type timetable acts as a mill stone, particularly for "tidal" lines. Suppose you have three trains available, and the core traffic is BL - MH in the morning and return in the afternoon. You could try to run a roughly even interval service, but you'd probably need about 90 minute departure times. Or you could run a "flight" of three trains departing BL at 30 minute intervals - say 10am, 10:30, 11am. The first to arrive departs back - at say 12 noon, arriving BL about 1:15 and departing again say 1:45 to arrive at MH about 3pm, with no crossing delays on the way. The other two lay over at BL for the middle of the day, then you have a flight of three departing back to BL at say 3:30, 4:00, 4:30. Just a thought - maybe something like that provides the best match between passenger flows and capacity, without requiring additional crossing infrastructure or more locos / rolling stock to run the normal daily service).

    Tom
     
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  15. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    I agree with all you say here, There is some background to my comments I should expand on perhaps to put some context into it. The MLRG want to run Commuter trains on the WSR, they see a justification for a TOC to run the trains at higher speeds. Their messaging at the time was in effect (my words): “Thanks WSR for keeping the line open but now it’s time to give us the line back so we can run Commuter trains every day” This messaging on the various mediums they use was watered down a while back but their intention seemed to be that Heritage trains would take a back seat to Commuter trains running at 50 mph.

    The WSR’s response was to state the many reasons why that would not work for them including the fact that the line didn’t have the capacity for both Heritage & Commuter trains on a daily basis which would take away an estimated £9 Million secondary spend in West Somerset due to running Commuter trains at the expense of Heritage trains bringing tourists to the area (a figure I came up with due to my research with HPC and how the local Community benefits with the WSR being open).

    Needless to say the two sides just ended up ‘consolidating’ their opposing views with each saying the other was wrong and nobody trying to see if there was a way for all to get what they wanted for the benefit of the larger community.

    You are right regarding costs, funding etc. and of course this is not a quick fix. But as I mentioned IF the demand was there for Commuter Trains, IF the funding was available to pay for it (and the loops) from a TOC or government funds, IF it brought the WSR an additional income stream and IF the funding were sustainable then the loops being in place would be a way of Heritage trains running and threading the additional Commuter trains through the Heritage ones on a normal day. It’s also worth noting that the recent Commuter train trail from Taunton to Bishops Lydeard was funded in part from a requirement as part of the overall GWR Franchise agreement with Government not necessarily from the direct fares that GWR took, so it’s not always about being profitable on a train by train basis. My view is whilst I can see some show stoppers here (the demand for one) if there is an opportunity here somewhere all should sit down calmly and think it through to see if it would work. As you identify re-timing existing trains may be valid as well
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  16. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    Is there any convincing research to suggest that there is a significant demand in Minehead for commuters to travel by train to Taunton Station? The station is well outside the town centre and thus only convenient for those who would wish to make onward rail journeys.

    For those who want to use public transport the No 28 bus already offers a far more convenient and frequent service along the route of the WSR and doesn't only stop at Taunton Station, but also serves other parts of the town - importantly too, it's free after 0930 for those with Bus Passes.
     
  17. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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  18. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    Don’t understand gala themes? We had branch line, delivering goods now great western
     
  19. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    What# on the diesel experience course 2moro please. 33?
     
  20. paul1609

    paul1609 New Member

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    My major interests are Football, Preserved Railways, Music and long Distance Walking.
    My only connections with the West Somerset Railway are;
    a) its one of the only heritage railways i travelled on in BR days (as a Butlin beaver)
    b) a tamper that I partially own visited about 10 years ago
    c) i recently got free bed and breakfast at one of its stationmaster houses on my lands end to john o'groats walk.
    I generally regard anybody supporting one of my major interests at another site as a good bloke (ess)/ potential best mate (with the notable exception of supporters of Southampton FC).

    If what I've been told about the WSRs PW problems are true, and Ive no reason to expect they aren't. More trains (regular commuter service) without a massive capital investment are what the line ends like a hole in the head. If one heritage railway is in difficulties the volunteers on others should muster round.
    Nuff said.
     

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