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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I think I remember that thread! Good shout.
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The bulk of the chapters are done in date order. I include references from contemporary reports from the railway magazines of the time, and where a new prototype locomotive or piece of rolling stock is introduced I do a short article on it. The reason for doing it chronologically is to do with getting a context for the timing of the decisions Thompson made.

    For example, Thane of Fife rebuilt in 1942. On trial for a year. I write an article on ToF in the 1942 section and then another in 1943 when the decision is taken to rebuild the rest.

    The Cox Report gets its own chapter. It had to really. It forms so much of the next four years locomotive development work that I couldn't ignore it.

    Thompson's legacy is a short one, giving a list of what remains of his tenure (two B1s, the K1 and some coaching stock).

    The Epilogue explores the way in which he's been portrayed in the press with examples given from the 1950s topresent day.

    Special thanks covers everyone - including Nat Pres.

    Bibiliography and References were split so that the references could be included as proper citations.
     
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  3. MrDibbs

    MrDibbs New Member

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    I've followed this thread keenly for some time now (although I have nothing to add myself), and would like to say I can't wait to read the finished book! It's definitely going to be on a future Christmas List.
     
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  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Most kind. Thank you.

    I feel pretty happy with my work at the moment, a copy of the book is likely to be available to view at the Gresley Society lecture in October, I have nearly finished my slides, and I have prepared a couple of models to showcase some of the standard Thompson designs. I hope to have K1/1 finished in time!
     
  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Just want to highlight this and scream to the heavens "YES" - particularly where the LNER was concerned! I remain dumbfounded that the LNER gave around 90% of their foundry capacity to munitions for the war effort, with most workshop space going to manufacturing other vehicles and weapons.

    Gresley and Thompson helped in the coordination of the building of new sidings across the country for the storage and then mobilisation of trains specific to the war effort, including but not limited to, troop transport, coal, steel, munitions trains and similar.

    When you set Thompson's job against the context of war and look at what he actually was responsible for, the idea that he was able to plot a sinister undermining of Gresley's reputation at the same time by rebuilding his worst large locos looks (and is) increasingly silly.
     
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  6. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    I have a recollection that there was a suggestion that Collett's commitment to the war effort was somewhat questionable and that was one of the reasons he was persuaded to retire (Oh and he did dismantle Churchwards North Star to build a Castle - but no-one would have expected it to be preserved anyway).
     
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Collett:
    1) converted the Great Bear, 111 into a Castle in 1924
    2) converted the prototype large Prairie 3100/99 into a 5100 in 1929.
    3) converted North Star, 4000/40 into a Castle in 1929
    4) scrapped the prototype 2 cylinder standard William Dean, 2900/100 in 1932
    5) scrapped the first true Saint 2998/98 in 1933

    The only one of Churchward's ground breaking prototypes to survive Collett essentially unchanged was 2800/98, which received outside steam pipes under Hawksworth and was scrapped in 1958.

    The fact that Collett gets none of the opprobrium that Thompson gets for converting Great Northern suggests to me that the outrage is really of the "any stick will do to beat a dog with" variety.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  8. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    GJ Churchward built pretty locomotives. Collett built (remarkably similar) pretty locomotives, it simply cannot be claimed that Collett attempted to rid Swindon of Churchward's influence. Now that nutter Hawkesworth putting weird splashers on counties, on the other hand....
     
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  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    The Thompson rebuild of the B12's produced not only a very good locomotive but a real 'looker'
     
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  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    In fairness - Thompson, and his assistant, AE English, did a bang up job on that and the D16/3, I feel.
     
  11. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    Cox's report simply recommends using more heat resistant/stronger steel in the Gresley valve gear. It certainly doesnt recommend rebuilding them, and was surprised how far behind the LNER was in modern metallurgy. And my grandad spent 5years in the Drawing office at Doncaster, for the LNER, if that helps you understand my first hand opinion of the dread rebuild.
     
  12. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Yes, but the piston valve cylinders fitted to some were a little bit too much power for the existing frames. New wine in old bottles, perhaps.
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It absolutely does say that.

    897D5E64-ECEE-4393-8D3A-94F161E5E7EB.jpeg

    By definition your opinion is not first hand.

    It’s second hand, because your grandfather told you his views.

    If he was in the drawing office at the LNER, the question has to be: from when to when?

    What did he work on? Why did he form that opinion?

    Dick Hardy worked in the drawing office too but specifically during Thompson’s reign. He worked on Great Northern sanding arrangement. He wrote on this several times.

    That’s a first hand account.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps - frame cracking not unique to the D16 rebuilds though.
     
  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I’ve never felt more frustrated at this thread.

    Even all the times where we had proper full on arguments.

    This has to be the most frustrating evening.
     
  16. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I would give more weight to Bert Spencer's recollections than those of Dick Hardy - who was a teenager at the time.

    Dick Hardy's anecdote does not ring true to me.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    He was 19 when he started and 24 when he left Doncaster. He worked on Thompson’s A1 Pacific.

    You would give more weight to Bert Spencer - who wasn’t there - than someone who was.

    Julian, you’ve played this game before and it just does not reflect well on you at all.

    If it’s just based on the recollections of Bert Spencer then that is hardly surprising.
     
  18. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    Got to say that Cox report looks like a recent published book. The original in the nrm I recall(though its a while ago) is certainly more circumspect than that. It looks to have been paraphrased for someone's agenda. Am certain it recommended remetalling, and this was successfully incorporated in the V2 monobloc. And it suggested the Gresley was perhaps becoming superceded in design by 3 sets of Walschaerts(the LMS thought so) but was still a very good set, and had produced exceptional locos. It said perhaps the Walschaerts could be considered for future builds, but the reports main purpose was to sort the middle cylinder wear under wartime duress and lack of maintenance. It was an opinion piece, and handwritten, and solved by sending them details of their metallurgists at Crewe. And then you have the Stephenson Black 5, jovially suggested at Swindon, and LMS engineers experimenting with other designs here too! So perhaps there we have some evidence, if what you have is how Thompson interpreted such a unique view into a rather dogmatic piece to justify rebuilding rather than using the more resilient metal in the valve gear; perhaps this offers a window into his intransigence. Seeing an A1 lose this recently perhaps doesn't favour it 'on the road.' And that Great Northern rebuild did crop up in a conversation with some of his old colleagues, who also muttered varying degrees of horror from "mortified," to "abject horror." You just can't deny how people felt because it was clearly emotive. However this is The Last Post, as clearly you have some difficulty looking at other views. Bear in mind, Gresley, Holden,Raven,Worsdell,Ivatt,Robinson, Reid, all produced better locos than Thompson some 20years previously!
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    “Paraphrased to suit someone’s agenda”.

    0602EECD-B067-4434-8D3C-65DCF6809549.jpeg

    I wonder what the agenda was when it was put, word for word, into Staniers autobiography.

    I have a copy of the original printed report and it’s word for word the same as that found in this tome.

    The recommendations are there. I have published a copy of the full report on this thread previously.

    Sigh.
     
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  20. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    I believe that frame cracking issues were widespread, albeit more on some railways than others. There was a lot of variation between classes, even on the same railway. It could often be the more efficient engines in performance terms, powerful in relation to size and weight, that suffered the worst frame problems.

    Other posters have mentioned some specific instances of frame issues. Here are a few more that come to mind:

    - Stanier "Black 5" 4-6-0 - the first 225 had main frames of 1-inch thickness, increased in later builds to 1 + 1/16-inch, then again in builds from 1947 to 1 + 1/8-inch.
    - GWR double-frame 4-4-0s - those built in the 1890s had frame tops that curved up over the driving axles and down between them. As a result of frame fractures, those built from 1900 eliminated the frame dip between the axles in favour of straight tops - as seen in "City of Truro".
    - LBSC Class B4 4-4-0 - according to RCTS, the frames of this class were in later years "badly patched", one of the reasons for these engines typically being withdrawn about a decade earlier than the contemporary equivalent SECR D-class and LSWR T9-class 4-4-0s.
    - NBR Class 317 (LNER Class D26) 4-4-0 - a class of 12 built in 1903 and scrapped in the mid-1920s, apparently due to weak frames. This was quite abnormal for NBR 4-4-0 types, which were usually very robust and long-lived.
    - HR Clan-class 4-6-0 - During the 1930s, these engines were used on the Callendar & Oban line, as they were much more powerful than the Caledonian Oban 4-6-0s in spite of being only slightly heavier. Unfortunately, the Oban line curves took a toll on their frames, which had to be strengthened.

    Frame strength could be an important issue for locomotive availability and repair costs, and eventually for life-expectancy, so I think it is very pertinent to this thread, given the emphasis that Mr Martin has placed on reliability and availability. Traffic will not be kept moving by locos falling apart. The availability statistics will no doubt give an indication of which classes a harassed LNER shedmaster could depend upon in the depths of war.
     
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