If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Especially if he has you on his naughty list...

    Keith
     
    Matt37401, 35B, HerstonHalt and 3 others like this.
  2. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    I agree the Association can’t be blamed for the PLC’s latest woes but I wouldn’t say they’re entirely separate. The Association is the PLC’s biggest shareholder and the PLC is, formally speaking, accountable only to the shareholders. But there are many other stakeholders, including volunteers and donors, without whom there would be no railway. In my view that’s a structural weakness in the way the business is run.
     
  3. Keith Sims

    Keith Sims Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    684
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired from volunteering
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
     
    malcolm imps, 45076, mvpeters and 6 others like this.
  4. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,323
    Likes Received:
    2,397
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Westcountry
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There is no point in holding on to stock which you are not realistically going to be able to overhaul in a reasonable time frame. Too many railways have sidings full of unsightly junk. It seems sensible to have a tidy-up. It is very different from flogging off a popular loco, and snubbing volunteers and paid staff in the process.
     
  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,493
    Likes Received:
    23,725
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It may be that without Flying Scotsman, the hole would be deeper. We don’t know.

    And that is where communication comes in. The postponed briefing session will hopefully help with this, but a degree of public acknowledgment of the shape and size of the hole would also seem wise - even if much (most?) of the detail remains confidential.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    The Dainton Banker likes this.
  6. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,635
    Likes Received:
    8,303
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That of course assumes that the railway owns the stored stock . Many railways have sidings occupied by privately owned stock in potentially varying degrees of disrepair . If this is not covered by an agreement / storage costs presumably it can be asked to leave or worst case ownership assumed and sold on
     
  7. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,498
    Likes Received:
    5,455
    Interesting that the NYMR have loaned the GWSR 2 SK’s for 10 years rather than sell them as they form part of a strategic reserve, something you can’t have if you sell them.
     
    johnofwessex and jnc like this.
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,428
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There have been warnings in the Annual Reports. One big warning sign would be that the cash reserves have been gradually depleted; I think @huochemi noted some pages back something like £1.8m of cash consumption beyond revenue over the last five years, of which £610k was from the reserves. (The rest was from a mortgage which at least has an asset in return, i.e. the house at BL; share purchases, legacies and donations). (see https://www.national-preservation.c...ilway-operations.508987/page-798#post-2352490)

    A few numbers jump out at me from the Board Report in the 2017 board minutes.

    The first is a high reliance on fare income. In 2017 (including Flying Scotsman) fares were 74% of turnover; in 2016 (without FS) they were the same percentage, on a lower turnover. That number feels high, and suggests that the income stream isn't very well diversified and hence is very reliant on a single source of income. For comparison, on another thread (yes, I know they exist...) some figures from the HRA were given that show across all railways who are members, fare income was 49% of turnover. I realise you have to be very cautious in comparing figures because of different structure and how different revenue streams are accounted for, but it still feels to me that if there is revenue growth opportunity on the WSR, the place to look is probably areas other than simply bums on seats.

    The second is a loco stock hire charge of £369k. If, as I suspect, there is also a loco workshop cost to add to that, then it feels like the WSR is directly paying a lot for its locos. Again, you have to be cautious comparing with other places, but it feels like the WSR is in a place where it doesn't own a significant part of its own fleet, but nor does it have very long-standing strategic relationships with loco owning groups that go a long way to subsidising the loco provision on other railways by independent fund raising. (Compare with say the Maunsell Loco Soc, Camelot Soc. and Bulleid Soc. on the Bluebell; Southern Locomotives at Swanage; the NELPG at the NYMR; etc.) Loco owning groups can be a form of non-obvious subsidy of loco costs, but you need strong, long-term relationships to make that work. Hence the current loco moves being so perplexing: the stated strategy seemed to have been to develop the strength of the home fleet, but then one loco has been sold and what looked like long-term relationships with the 4F and 6695 have been severed. Since in general there is a shortage of operational locos, it is hard to imagine owners queueing up to base their locos at the West Somerset except on generous terms. Having seen two long-term loan arrangements dissolved, I'm not sure who would be wishing to enter a similar relationship right now.

    The other number that jumps out is track renewal. The WSR is 20 miles long on its mainline. Taking ballpark figures: if you assume a 40 year lifespan for p/way renewal, that means renewing 0.5 miles per year just to maintain the current condition. It's hard to give a cost of that since renewal depends on local ground conditions, so won't be the same at different points along the railway; even so if you reckoned on £0.5million per mile then the comment in the Board Report about track renewal of £186k not being enough is well made. If renewals are well behind (and the WSR wouldn't be alone in that) then it is going to need to do considerably more than 0.5 miles per year to catch up. Even 1 mile per year would still take 20 years to relay the whole line.

    Which then comes to the structural point. The WSR is not alone in finding that revenue from running trains doesn't pay for the long-term maintenance of the railway. Its weakness though is that it doesn't have a strong track record in fundraising to help plug that gap; that in turn seems to derive from a somewhat laissez-faire attitude towards its supporters - whether active volunteers or armchair members of one or the other membership group. The distinct impression I form is that the PLC in particular hasn't realised that the supporters are the engine room of the railway: they are the people who will volunteer to do glamorous and unglamorous jobs alike; who will respond to appeals; spread the word and so on. But they have to be nurtured, rather than being almost ignored until it is too late. Given its length, the WSR is always going to be an expensive railway to operate (both because of the scale of infrastructure; and the number of trains - i.e. operational locos and carriages - that have to be fielded every day even to offer a minimal service). To be viable, it is going to need an energised support body, something that the plc seems loathe to realise.

    Tom
     
  9. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    5,045
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Comfy chair occupant!
    Location:
    No moaners please!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I take your point but you were clearly making direct comparisons between the two. Your suggestion that the WSRA “committed suicide three years ago” is absurd. The WSRA was brought to its knees by a group of Trustees who were determined to use it to serve their own selfish ends. There is no credible evidence that this is the case with the PLC. What has, as fr as I can see, been years of poor managent by successive boards and chairmen. Collectively they have just done bad jobs. I can’t see how that can be solved other than an EGM or collapse into administration. The situation regarding asset sales seems bizarre but without knowing more definitive information it is impossible to fully understand. ThPLC board are going to face some very difficult questions at the open meeting. In the meantime all this wild speculation can do no good.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  10. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    5,045
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Comfy chair occupant!
    Location:
    No moaners please!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You forget that the PLC board’s primary obligation is to the shareholders not the public. However the meeting of various parties next month will be an opportunity to ask. Expecting a continuous public commentary is unreasonable.
     
    Graft on likes this.
  11. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2018
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere with a lot of letters!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Primary obligation should be to Stakeholders rather than Shareholders.
     
  12. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The recent flurry of activity I think revolves around three issues :

    1) PLC financial concerns.
    2) Locomotive policy
    3) Bruised egos.

    1)

    The PLC last four annual reports have shown a fall in cash reserves at the beginning
    of the winter shut from c.£1 million to c.£250K.
    (As an accountant friend who in the past was closely connected with the Plc recently
    said "Nobody turned the tap off')

    During 2018 we know from recent statements to the Railway Magazine that 2018 pax
    numbers were c.5% down on 2017.
    Then there is the Flying Scotsman visit of 2017. I was intimately involved with this at
    all stages. Simplistically it covered a six figure spend on the permanent way and
    contributed a six figure sum ( that is margin net of all costs including notional
    revenues if a normal train service had operated )

    It is not rocket science : with no Flying Scotsman and a 5% drop in pax to see that
    entering the winter closure the cupboard will have been very empty.

    The PLC is now in the classic recovery period.
    There are no magic wands ! The normal reactions are required

    a) Borrow to keep the ship afloat ( not likely to be cheap )
    b) Reduce overheads.
    c) Sell assets.
    d) Seek/implement passenger number growth and donations.

    I assume a) has happened ( If not I doubt the March 2 meting would be taking place)
    b) is happening including redundancies c) 4110 etc d) underway ?

    2)

    Locomotive policy

    Some attempts at objectivity

    Locos 9351 & 4561 are currently under overhaul. 7821 under cover at Swindon.

    4110, has limited WSR provenance. ( allocated Taunton July 62 to May 63 ( ref Longworth)
    Ideal loco for the WSR other than limitations wrt cab and 'Eginemans Courses". Whether
    there were or were not funds to purchase said loco within the WSR diaspora, its future
    AFAIK would be to remain forlorn at MD platform end with parts sitting in two containers.
    It would seem that not only do the P&D offer the Plc an immediate essential cash injection
    but they are likely to have the loco in service within a reasonable time frame.

    44422. A Class of loco, anathema to Swindon purists, but ubiquitous throughout the LMS.
    I remember that when Mr Stanier arrived at Crewe there was a substantial order for more
    4Fs. He cancelled it, but following an outcry from the MPDs the order was reinstated. Their
    versatility, reliability etc was praised. (Personal memories stretch from seeing them, shunting
    yards, on pick up goods, MML coal trains and nine coach excursions to inter alia Southend
    and Blackpool. However...

    I note the comments re footplate experience wrt 44422 on the WSR but; availability has
    been poor, whenever I have been on duty she has (despite only six coaches on MD1)
    invariably had time booked against the loco. .I believe there has been considerable money
    spent (I imagine the cost per mile has been very high). Worse still it would require
    significant outlay to return her to reliable service. Simply stated the 4F on the KWVR
    appears to be an excellent piece of kit ( good impressions when it visited the WSR for
    a past Gala) 44422 is not !

    6695. A design put together by Mr Collett ( or more likely his DO ) in a hurry. ie standard
    Swindon boiler on essentially a TVR A Class frame. Apart from the well known concerns
    wrt weight/ballancing and liability to damage track the overhanging smoke box does not
    chime with 21st century safety methodology.

    9351, ran for 96000 miles in its last WSR ten year operating period. Minimum fuss,
    capable of handling eight coach trains, ( as noted previously on test, started eight coaches on 1/74
    and as reported at the time with RFO and 40% attained 25mph). Yes there were no such locos
    built but there are Swindon drawings of 2-6-0s with both the No.2 standard boiler and the even
    smaller No.10 from the 1920s.

    4561. A historic loco with close connection to the earlier days of the WSR. There has been much
    discussion wrt "Is it large enough ? Can only be used in the shoulder period ? etc. In 2002 due to
    loco shortages Nos.5542 and 5553 for most of August ran seven coach trains to time ( the third
    loco involved was 80136). The small Prairie has always been a design that could 'walk away' with
    a heavy load ( small coupled wheels, good ratio evaporative area to cylinder volume etc. )

    ( As an aside the Railway and Transport Monthly for February 1916 included details of various
    45xx hauling trains out of Torquay and Torre with loads between 198 and 301 tons rare. Gradients
    similar to up to Washford. There were AFAIK also never any problems with small prairies and
    eight coach trains over the WSR in GWR or BR(W) days)

    Nos. 4936 and 7027

    If the owner of said locos is prepared to base them on the WSR this appears to be a benefit ?
    4936 can if not on Main Line use be of inestimable operational use ( aka 6960 is now)
    Similarly if the owner wishes to pay for the overhaul of 7027 at Williton.

    It does appear to me that the gWr electrification will render steam operation out of Paddington/
    Victoria problematic. BTM - Paignton, BTM Par will become increasingly the sphere of operation.
    BL plus the triangle will become an increasingly attractive asset. The presence of 4936 and 7027
    will be complementary.

    3)

    Bruised egos.

    We all suffer from at varuios times I imagine. I also think that amongst any 1000 volunteers
    there are inevitably a handful reliving/reinventing a previously failed career. Sad but true.

    We have a new Chairman. For whatever reason under recent Chairs and FDs controls have
    slipped. There have been warnings but we are where we are. Pragmatism must be the
    watch word. Our new Chair deserves our thanks for picking up, if perhaps not a poisoned
    chalice, one with many holes. It appears the holes have been plugged, more liquid is now
    required. Egos will be bruised, favourite toys discarded and compromises made, but the
    WSR can be better for the experience.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    854tiger, baldbazza, oddsocks and 7 others like this.
  13. As an independent commercial company, it has a primary obligation to its shareholders. However, its very existence and likelihood of delivery success to its shareholders is so reliant on third party support fro its stakeholders that the situation functionally and morally demands an equal obligation to its stakeholders.

    Steve
     
  14. Keith Sims

    Keith Sims Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    684
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired from volunteering
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Except that shareholders who do not follow social media have not been officially invited to that meeting. How many there are out there I do not know, but I think some effort should be made to include them in the discussions. Was it not the case that "distant" WSRA only heard "good news" from the ex6 via the journal. WSR plc really should try to be INCLUSIVE.
     
  15. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    5,045
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Comfy chair occupant!
    Location:
    No moaners please!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Legally the company is only primarily accountable to the shareholders. That is the law.
     
    Triumph 2500S and Wenlock like this.
  16. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,635
    Likes Received:
    8,303
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    @Yorkshireman Many shareholders though (like yourself ) will also be members of the WSR . Whether a railway is a PLC or not the emotional investment of all involved will be higher . Shareholders are also stakeholders.

    @Maunsell907 , that the loco is sold to raise much needed capital is not in dispute given the financial predicament . It is the manner of the change to what was believed and was it also not announced as a done deal . I would still challenge the providence piece . GWR Large Prairies are synonymous with the WSR , 4110 worked the line albeit briefly . Chances to acquire engines like that come up rarely . I would also challenge the thought that 4110 Ltd would not have progressed in the restoration . Yes significant fund raising would be required but a group who had been able to raise £100k relatively quickly could have built on that . As I read it that group being made of a significant proportion of WSR volunteers would have ample motivation and ability to progress the restoration. Whats more the engine would have been available for WSR traffic. From a footex perspective your view almost implies that tank engines have no future and all may as well be converted to tender engines

    What is painfully apparent is that leading a preserved railway must be an impossible task . Trying to embrace the emotional capital so many invest , balancing pet projects with a need to generate cash which is consumed with every increasing speed, a volunteer base , running with assets way past their intended use by date, manpower heavy to recreate the past , often with engines unsuited to the line. Throw in an environmental impact as well and if paid probably below what can be commanded elsewhere
     
    Matt37401, 35B, Mogul and 3 others like this.
  17. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    Within the law, extending a degree of accountability to other stakeholders (without whom the plc would not exist for very long) might make good business sense. There are various ways in which this could be done.
     
  18. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Actually small Prairies were synonymous with the WSR. At peak periods the 43xx 2-6-0s hauled the heavier
    Summer through trains ( the 43xx 2-6-0s were turned on the small MD turntable by using extension pieces
    to the deck.) For many years the two large Prairies at Taunton MPD were mainly employed as Wellington bankers.
    Large Prairies became available in the last few years of steam due to the onset of diesels elsewhere.

    I consider 4561 an excellent loco for the WSR. I never said I was in favour of tender locos other than
    their suitability for steam engine man's courses ( many loco crews do like the additional water
    provision.) For what my views are worth (I have travelled behind 107 different locos on the WSR)
    the two best, recognising the P&P needs of everyday WSR running have been GWR/BR large
    Prairie No.4160 and BR Standard 4 2-6-4 tank No.80136.

    My posting was an attempt to be pragmatic wrt where we are today. We have 7828, 6960 & 53808
    available ( plus 7822 on hire for 2019 ?). Money can ensure that 9351 soon, and 4561 perhaps
    within 24 months ( even sooner I suspect if £110K was raised now !) ahead can be available.

    You are correct, managing a Heritage Railway will increasingly become more challenging,
    less time for sentiment. Pragmatism will increasingly become the watch word. The WSR
    historically (despite its length and hence fares have represented a lower value than other
    Heritage Railways per mile ) has been a rarity, returning an operating profit. Increasingly
    (as with the Bluebell, NYMR and SVR) it will depend on grants and donations if it is to survive.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  19. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    7,688
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Former NP Member
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The Companies Act 2006 introduced/strengthened Legal Responsibilities to other than just Shareholders. That many commercial companies seem to ignore this does not change the fact.

    Practically, I am afraid it is a harsh truth that the highly diverse (i.e. numerous small holdings) share ownership of an organisation like the WSRplc means that, once the shareholder has made their purchase, they probably come further down the 'pecking order' for keeping happy than volunteers, loco owners, local authorities and other 'stakeholders', whose effective support is visibly on-going. One of the great issues of the West Somerset Railway set up and position is the difficulty for 'supporters' in the general sense to provide on-going support if not able to volunteer (except through WSRA., which a number of them wish to see fail completely).

    I won't quote the whole of @Maunsell907's long post, especially as I intend to comment only on the last part, where he criticises past holders of certain posts. The previous two Chairmen did make pretty blunt public statements of the seriousness of the position going back some time (well over a year). It is difficult not to conclude what they said in the privacy of the Board Room may have been even more direct. In both cases, they soon ceased to be the Chairman. Even from a distance, it is difficult not to question whether others on the Board and in positions of influence on the Railway were reluctant to heed their Chairman's message. The FD role is less public but, in such circumstances, is likely to have been key in the Chairman forming their view and likely to have been at the very least the bearer of bad news to the Board which presumably identified the situation to the Chairmen.

    So warnings were given but the only action appeared to be the departure of those issuing the warnings. I can understand @Yorkshireman's comments on what this appears to represent, but also have enough experience to have some understanding that these things are very difficult, seemingly easy options often aren't and it is all too easy for organisations desire to radically tackle problems to fail as soon as an individual finds their own 'sacred cows' on the dinner menu!

    Steven
     
  20. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Steven, I do not wish to enter into a slanging match. You are absolutely wrong with
    your assessment. Undoubtedly there are others who might have taken action, but
    you are completely wrong with your reading of past situations. Making blunt
    statements ( not that any come to mind ) in public is easy, following up with
    the necessary action is more difficult.

    The current Chairman appears to be more of a doer less of a commentator. Let us
    hope he and his small Board continue.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Yorkshireman likes this.

Share This Page