S&C Pathfinder Charter - Aug 2018: Now 16/3/19 and with 60163

Does the train go into Carlisle or use the Upperby curve next Saturday

 

Supposed to be the latter as the stopover is Appleby not Carlisle.

 

I'd be inclined to suggest the window for 50% refund only being triggered is probably an unfair term because it effectively limits the redress of the customer if the provider makes a material change to the product. If nothing changes but the customer wishes to cancel then the limitation would be fair.
Although the changes are enforced on the provider, that is part of the commercial risk of running a business of this type. It is not reasonable to expect customers to share that risk by seeking to limit the business liability even though the changes are largely outside the control of the business. Just as Pathfinder advises customers to take insurance, the firm should have measures to mitigate potential losses that don't rely on customers being left out of pocket.

 

It is what it is. I have enquired about insurance in the past but none covered 'changing the locomotive or type of motive power of trains'. Perhaps there are some that do. if you know of one let me know. We know the Ts&Cs only too well and accept that if you want to travel steam hauled it's worth the risk and occasional loss. To be honest I only booked the 11th because it was Tornado. We were hoping for some blistering climbs of Grayrigg, Shap, the S&C and Wilpshire as part of the celebration of 10 years running on the mainline. Rare to see the big engine let loose on Shap of late. Once a year has become the norm.

 

But it is far better than a lot of the travel industry generally I would suggest. For example for a Shearings Coach Trip trip of less than 5 days (includes day trips) the cancellation costs are:

56 to 49 days Deposit

48 to 29 days 30% of total cost or deposit if greater

28 to 22 days 50% of total cost or deposit if greater

21 to 8 days 70% of total cost or deposit if greater

7 to 1 day 90% of total cost or deposit if greater

Departure day or later Total holiday cost

We can argue the toss if diesel replacing steam is a material change on here until the cows come home, but until it goes to court for a ruling all that happens is the likes of you and me spouting hot air!

 

What's a coach trip????

 

As you say nothing will be resolved or proven within these pages. The crucial element, though, is the basis for cancellation. If the seller makes a substantial change to the nature or quality of the originally contracted service, those restrictions must become null and void otherwise the customer is placed at an unreasonable disadvantage. I can see the reason for having them is to deter frivolous late cancellations.
It's clear the likes of @1020Shireman have above average information to make their purchasing decision but arguably the majority of potential customers will not know the relative likelihood of what might happen prior to their trip, those are the people that need the fullest consideration because they are the type that will sustain the demand.

 

Above average perhaps but not when booking in March for an August tour!!! Not going to do that in the future. Will leave booking as late as possible and risk doing more POTDs in the summer.

 

Clearly the unavailability of the A1 was not an especially forseeable consideration when the tour was advertised but it does highlight the lack of available contingencies.
I think the possibility of a fire mitigation diesel scenario was much more of a potential risk in August that could have been catered for in the planning. It seems to have taken Pathfinder by complete surprise that they might be faced with such a situation even though the nature of the train demanded some planning for the eventuality, above and beyond the 'norm'.

 

From the number that pitch up here in Swanage every day a very popular activity for people even older than me!

 

When we booked in April only 'first class plus' was available so we stand to waste £400. Likewise we shall in future wait until the last minute or POTD as we have done with most other tours except the A1 but even that now must be allocated to the 'wait until we see the white lights' principle. I'm no weatherman but we predicted this scenario weeks ago and wrote to Pathfinders emphasising the absolute importance of unadulterated steam haulage on the day. I stressed it was far more important to delay the trip than it be a laughing stock by running with diesel. This date is for enthusiasts, especially those of a certain age, not the type we hear Marcus Robertson talking about who have come out for a day trip on a train with foodies and aren't that bothered what's 'up front'. We voted with our feet for several years now by not going on any more Steam Dreams trips after being told, when we wanted to switch to 'any other trip' from one that was dieselised, to read the T&C. Up to that point we had travelled with them about 10 to 15 times a year. That was the last time.

 

have just spoken to pathfinder tours (very nice lady) who have told me the trip will be steam hauled by union of south africa with diesel assistance and letters should be sent out tonight to confirm this.

 

It does seem strange that, given the unavailability of any steam loco for the 15th August trip they have postponed that one rather than run with just a diesel, but given the impossibility of running the 11th August trip with pure steam they are running it anyway with diesel assistance. As ever, there is no right answer that would please everybody but surely 11th August is a date when it should be pure steam or nothing.

 

My uninformed guess would be it was left too late to cancel without exposing Pathfinder to a great financial risk. This way they will only be liable to 50% refunds.
There is no other rational explanation I can think of.

 

Agree with all you say, however to be fair to SD, Marcus was quoted back in May (I think in Steam beano) as saying a real effort was being made not to run with a diesel on the back, and up until the present debacle, a majority of SD trains had run unassisted, a most welcome development.

I think Pathfinder have behaved very badly on this one. Like you I would be livid if I was on it.

 

Mr Robertson was widely quoted just as you mention an now the new owner of SD Mr Buck has even gone so far as to say his aspiration is they will always double head with two 5s rather than use a diesel to assist when the load dictates. Noble ambition to be applauded, hopefully can be matched by sufficient locos and crews as required.
What both statements do is give a lie to those who say diesels have no impact on customer satisfaction. Clearly the perception within SD is now very different.

 

Times:

Outward
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55295/2018/08/11/advanced

Return
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55298/2018/08/11/advanced

Steam up from Crewe H.S. in the morning having come up from Southall on Friday

 

Whatever the weather it promises to be an interesting day !
The times for the other two trains are also on RTT.

Assuming all runs to schedule it looks like the Golden Express is scheduled up Shap ahead of the CME by a margin of 14 minutes, should arrive at Appleby just after the Waverley departs for Carlisle and will be passed at Appleby by the southbound CME. 50 years ago you couldn't have dreamed it possible.

Has one steam working (loose description for this week) ever overtaken another at Appleby before ?

 

four crossings of Ribblehead Viaduct by "steam" in one day ! whats not to like

i'm the guy with a black Skoda estate and a yellow lab - will be at Ribblehead or Dent viaduct - come and say hello