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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Dare I mention that there were at least three members of the Spooner dynasty intimately involved with the Ffesterbahn?

    Perhaps as the Alco has carried the historic name 'Mountaineer' for the past 50 years (a lot longer than the first No.3) and in honour of the line's earliest loco builder, the FR Heritage Group members might consider 'England' as a name for their long sought-after original format small 'boxer'? Can't think why anyone in Wales might object to that! :D
     
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  2. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    ’George’ might just pass muster.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Aye ..... They could take a leaf out of OVSB's book and have an attractive nameplate with a suitable polychromatic motif. I wonder what relevant images George might conjour up? ;)
     
  4. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    I liked the idea of James Spooner, the new Earl was interesting but inelegant and while it might be nice to see it resurrected again I don't think it would be worth building a new loco to that design.

    However I agree that the new James Spooner looks like being a bit too much of a clone of DLG. While accepting a more powerful loco with technical improvements is clearly necessary for operational requirements and reliability I think more could have been done to reflect the different character of the original 1872 loco as built, even to the extent of building it with parallel boiler barrels and just weatherboards instead of a cab. They could always have made a basic roof rather like I seem to recall on Merddin Emrys at one time which could be simply fitted out of season if necessary.
     
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  5. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    Parallel boiler barrel is a non-starter - the whole point of the exercise is to replace the parallel boiler (which has inherent weakness from the parallel design) with a taper boiler.
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Actually, a modified 'wagon top'* boiler. Unique to the Ffesterbahn (AFAIK) the taper is in the vertical plane only and provides inherent resistance to the stress cracking suffered by the preservation era parallel design. Those Spooners knew their business!

    Lifted from the Festipedia page, here's drawing for the new boiler:
    JSBoiler.jpg

    Last I heard, James Spooner will feature a cab partially open across it's central width (the original loco as built had just weatherboards), with tarps for the inclement weather only ever experienced in Gwynedd between January and December.

    Again, brazenly nicked from Festipedia
    JTJ.S.jpg

    IIRC, a surviving bell from the original is going to be mounted on the boiler.

    *this seems to be the spelling for this boiler type, though, mysteriously, the FR's open freight stock were always 'waggons'
     
  7. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Just to clear something up. Issue with the Hunslet built parallel boiler design is not the shape of the barrel. It is the lack of longitudinal stays when first built.

    Since both boilers have been modified they have proven to be a sound design. The one on Merddin is in better condition than the one on EofM. The amount of use and the manner in which repairs have been made in in the past is why one needs substantial firebox work, while that other has plenty of life left in it.

    The wagon top boiler design. Had its own issues. Not least the complicated cross staying arrangement.

    The new boiler is not a wagon top. It is a hybrid of Hunslet design, and the taper boiler on DLG. Taking the successful crown staying and tube arrangement from the Hunslet bolier, to replace the unreliable design on DLG. It also keeps the single row superheat from the old boilers.

    James Spooner 2 is basically an as built Merddin Emrys with bells on. It has no resemblance to the original loco in any of its forms.

    Tim
     
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  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Cheers @meeee Though I claim no expertise whatsoever, my own - possibly flawed and almost certainly shakey - understanding was that the wagon top's shape and staying produced something akin to the entire structure performing much like a 3-dimensional cantilever (not bad over a century befor CAD, Eh?).

    Given the cost of developing a new and rather involved design, I suspect the mods to the earliest Hunslet parallel jobs had been taken as far as they could, without complete satisfaction .... or surely Blodge would've settled for a far cheaper and just as visually convincing cosmetic taper?

    The range of detail improvements to flexible steam pipes, brakes and not least of all, bogies over recent decades has been a joy to witness. From what I've seen, the new boiler spec speaks volumes for the levels of expertise attained. I'm glad LT is secure as a homage to the Spooner era, but today's FR demands more of it's infrastructure than the old company ever needed to and engineering developments to ensure the best performance for today's requirements are to be applauded (and where possible, supported).

    Is it just me, or did Jon W look less terrified in front of the camera on the latest update? :cool:

    Glad to see FR engineering trains are getting continuous brakes now and that tamper looks like it's the business when it's working (no deliberate ambiguity there .... no siree!). Are we due for another round of 'where's the pony' yet? :D
     
  9. meeee

    meeee Member

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    The cradle doesn't really support the firebox at all. So the boiler has to be able to suspend that weight between the bogie pivots. We know now that we can do that with a less complicated arrangement than the wagon top. But they certainly had very a good understanding of the problem back in those days.

    The parallel boiler design may not
    necessarily be cheaper. The parallel boiler requires more complicated throatplates. These can be expensive and time consuming things to make when compared to rolling and welding a tapered tube these days. Then you have other things like longitudinal stays to make and maintain.

    There are other advantages too. DLG is noticeably less prone to priming thanks to the extra water space.

    Welsh Pony is due back in the works over the summer. Other more critical tasks have taken priority over the winter such as DLG power bogie overhauls.

    Tim
     
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thanks Tim. I had actually assumed the cradle was part of the boiler support. Now I know better.:)

    I'd imagine DLG's lack of priming means crews can feel more confident about the Nantmor Ski Slope and the 'S bends'.

    Be it known, I was just teasing .... Pony'll be ready when Pony's ready. A hale and healthy Pony is worth the wait. Just hope the Alco won't be too long taking it's place. Call me wierd, but I love Mountaineer's unpretentious chunky presence. Have Blodge had the opportunity to do a detailed assessment recently? There seemed to be at least two schools of thought, as well as stuff and mount, last I heard.

    Howard
     
  11. lostlogin

    lostlogin Member

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    I am not sure it is a question of being blasé but more a case of being comfortable with what we are familiar with. I like to think that my interest and enjoyment of preserved railways is the history and preservation element. New toys out of the box do nothing for me whether narrow gauge or standard. Tornado leaves me cold, I would have much preferred that they had tried to design a steam loco for the 21st century rather than recreate a "lost" class. Similarly Lyd on the FR, the Garratts on the WHR and No.7 at Corris

    However I'd like to see Mountaineer return to the FR and I have no issues with no's 3, 4 and 6 at the TR. I like to think that it is because they "fit" each of the railways are on operating on or are on railways they could easily have operated on in the past or very similar railways. But in reality that is probably baloney and it is simply that they are loco's that were operating when I was a kid holidaying in the area so grew up with and consequently feel right. Maybe give it 5o years and I will not see Lyd as being odd on the FR, I am just about coming around to No.7 on the TR, and my kids will probably just think it is the way it has always been.

    Rather than being blasé it probably simply that we all have a bit of nostalgia in us.
     
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  12. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    In which case, why on earth use that name?
     
  13. meeee

    meeee Member

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    No idea. You'll have to ask the management.

    G.P.Spooner would have been a better name seeing as he designed the round style FR double engine.

    I can understand why you wouldn't want it named after a preservation figure. A great many people have contributed to make the railway what it is today, not just one or two people. The amazing attraction we have today is a better memorial to their efforts than anything else.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps the board hasn't forgiven Percy for his indiscretion yet?

    I've got a certain sympathy for the suggestion, though I suspect in reality JSII represents little more than a desire to fill the missing numbers and as there hasn't been a No.8 for 80+ years .....

    Them's as pay the piper .... and all that! ;)
     
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  15. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    I certainly think it's great seeing the new no 7 (and hopefully no 10) on the Corris and Lyn on the L&B and Taliesin is great as a recreation of a long lost type.

    I suppose a 21st Century design could have been designed for the WHR (I must confess I find Garratts just about the least photogenic steam design) but I rather feel that modern steam designs excite their designers more than the potential passengers and may well introduce too many new unknowns (some strange designs the like of which have never been seen certainly pop up on NP!)
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    From many perspectives, the Garratt is an extremely successful mutation .... just (arguably) not a particularly photogenic one .... just where is one supposed to put the TTTE 'face'? Don't answer that! :D

    I'll be very interested to see how the 'Kalaharis' cope with WHR conditions. The NG15, with it's more conventional layout, should meet with with the approval of the long lens brigade and No.134 is making steady progress .... even if the website's 'News' page fell off the edge of the universe in 2015! (Don't panic .... the updates have simply relocated to the 'Working Party' section ... and Barrie Hughes regularly keeps us abreast of progress at 'isengard.co.uk').

    Talk very nicely to the authorities in India and maybe they'd consider loaning a Darjeeling 'plains' pacific .... if said loan included full restoration.

    BTW .... Are we absolutely sure the Rheidol tanks won't fit on the WHR?
     
  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    No chance, there's only two of them (which is 100% survival), and they're highly valued where they are.
    If you want an Indian 2' gauge Pacific, there are ("allegedly") two of the Gwalior ones in Collection X. Oh dear, now I've said it out loud!
    But I wouldn't have thought "plains" 4-6-2 locos would be ideal for the WHR...!!!
     
  18. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Why not C E Spooner? He probably made a bigger contribution to the FfR of anyone, ever.
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Mmmmm .... can one have too many double Fairlies? Three seems a reasonable number for a 13.5 mile line .... unless there's a return to the heady days of the late 60's/ early 70's.

    It strikes me that William Maddocks and Samuel Holland probably deserve a higher profile too. Both certainly did more to make the FR viable than any 'Earl of Merioneth' has done ....
     
  20. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Free the NG15's 134 and 135 I say :)
     

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