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Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Maunsell man, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    New Build Steam has just added a short but not un-interesting interview about Beachy Head.

    Noel
     
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  2. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Thanks. I note that they say "it could be in the future" in relation to certification for main line running. I note from the 8 December 2008 progress report http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/locos/atlantic/latest_08.html that the rods were cut from forged cuboid billets i.e. not forged into the shape of the actual rods, as one would normally expect. Are rods made on this basis approved for NR use?
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think the far more significant sentence about mainline running is the preceding one:

    “Beachy Head is being built solely for use on the Bluebell Railway as an addition to the running fleet.”

    The next sentence “There are no plans for it to be main line certified although it could be in the future” explicitly says there are no plans for mainline running - any likelihood arises just that anything might happen in the lifetime of an asset that will likely have an economic life much longer than most of our lifetimes.

    Tom
     
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  4. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Sure but my query was really about the rods, as it seems to be an interesting variation on the forging concept.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don’t know the answer but it seems any possibility of mainline running is so far in the future that - were that method of fabrication the only point at issue - you could make new ones.

    Tom
     
  6. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Would be interesting to know. It seems the Bluebell must have signed it off for use on their tracks.
     
  7. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It isn't just the connecting rods, though, is it? I thought most, if not all, of the motion had been made this way. And IIRC other locos have followed the same path.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed, though my understanding is that it’s not just based on the opinion of the design team as to their suitability - anything safety-critical in the design is verified by an independent competent person, who is not otherwise associated with the Bluebell.

    Tom
     
  9. Ruston906

    Ruston906 Member

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    I would not see there is much to be gained for a large expense off mainline running far better for heritage lines only I assume at some point it will visit other lines.
     
  10. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think too many people get too carried away with thoughts of mai-line running, the LNWR George V project - is a 19th century 4-4-0 going to haul a meaningful load at a sensible speed? I for one doubt it!
     
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  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed - as I said above, the important line is “Beachy Head is being built solely for use on the Bluebell Railway as an addition to the running fleet” which seems pretty unequivocal to me.

    It’s worth remembering in that context that, at a financial level, the loco is being built by, and is owned by, the Bluebell Railway - it’s not an independent group as is the case with some other new builds. So its future usage will inevitably be defined by what is in the interest of the railway, which has consistently shown no desire to run on a regular basis outside its own infrastructure - loan agreements to other heritage railways excepted.

    Quite.

    Tom
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I would much rather see it on the front of our Pullman’s regularly so we can be assured of meeting the schedule demanded of us on the Golden Arrow. The ample power of the Atlantic would be a joy for many in the catering and operating departments.
     
  13. 8126

    8126 Member

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    I saw some discussion of this point, specifically referencing 32424, on a US forum of all places. I'm not going to try to find the result right now, but somebody (I think from the Strasburg Railroad engineering department) made the very interesting suggestion that railways didn't forge rods to near net shape for the reasons we'd think of these days, to get good grain structure and maximise fatigue life. They did it to minimise machining time. In fact, contended the writer, if you looked at forgings off engines built in steam days, they could be really quite ropy in terms of inclusions and porosity, although nowhere near as bad as an equivalent casting would be. Whereas now, we can take a piece of stock rolled to size in a modern rolling mill, with known excellent properties, water jet cut it to a profile then happily hog away with machine tools operating at material removal rates unheard of in steam days to get the rest of the shape.
     
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  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    A slight tangent but didn't Didcot spend time getting the trailer up to standard to run on the mainline, only for it to not run on the mainline after all. Reading the articles about the steam railmotor and getting that accepted to run on NR, it seems like a massive headache for not a huge amount of return.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The remaining private builders (Hunslet, Hudswell, etc) had generally gone over to flame cut and machined coupling rods on their diesel locos in the 1960's. If the steel is of the right specification, there's no reason why not. 53809 is running around with some items of flame cut valve gear and did so when it was running on the network in the 80's. You can see the cut marks as they have not even been cut oversize and machined back to remove the heat affected zone. There may well be others. I guess it is all down to grandfather rights making forged rods a relatively easier option.
    I think I'd prefer rods made from wrought steel of a known quality and machined to size over a forged rod with the possibility of forging laps being present.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  16. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for that, a good point. Also there is the possibility that rolled steel may not be readily available in the right thickness (say 150mm) or is only available in uneconomically large quantities. One suspects that present day steel is rather better quality than in the steam age so the need for forging for integrity may not be there.
    Thanks Steve. This seems to be confirming what I had just written. It would be interesting to know what the decision making process on the Atlantic was which led them to choose a forged billet.
     
  17. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    best you check out Wild Duck then ……….20th C btw
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  18. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I might, if only I knew what you are on about!
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect a reference to this: http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/lnwr3.htm

    It’s a long page, so search for the second reference on that page to “Wild Duck”. I don’t really know the gradients of the southern LNWR to know how plausible the recorded run was, but I suspect that if you routinely thrashed a small loco like that on a big load, it wouldn’t do much for its longevity - perhaps more a concern in today’s artisan era of new-build locos than in pre- WW I era with the might of Crewe works to churn out new locos at great pace and low cost.

    Tom
     
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  20. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

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    brief technical description and some discussion on the absurd or rich names bestowed upon the locomotives) is limited mainly to an enrichment of a run recorded by C.J. Allen: "The Wild Duck, with Driver Greenhalgh, was responsible for a spectacular run timed by Cecil J. Allen in 1912. The train was the 10.50 a.m. out of Euston, weighing 410 tons full, in bad weather. The engine stuck on the greasy rail going up Camden bank and had to be assisted in rear (not a regular practice from Euston in those days). Willesden was passed barely eleven minutes late, at 55½ m.p.h., and the average speed thence to milepost 156, after which the train was checked by Crewe signals, was 62.1 m.p.h. The Rugby and Stafford slacks were strictly observed. Minimum speeds of 56¼, 58¼ and 56¼ m.p.h. were recorded at the top of the climbs to Tring, Roade and Kilsby Tunnel respectively, and pass-to-pass average, Tring to Castlethorpe (25.1 miles) was 72.5 m.p.h. Wild Duck's coal consumption on this run worked out at only 33 lb. per mile, and about 40 lb. was a fair average for these engines in their youth. It was customary to drive them with a fairly early cut off and the regulator wide open—hence the shouting exhaust which many immediately associate with the London and North Western of those days. Wild Duck's run was more fully described by its original recorder, with a log," in Railway Magazine,1935, 77, (457), 1-10. (originally published in 1912)(bold type added


    the above is a very abbreviated description of Wild Ducks' run . it was far from unique . another excellent run was given by Wolfhound . the LMS "drew their teeth " by removing the centre bearing which was an asset when the loco was being thrashed - which was most of the time .
    this sort of performance would have been notable from a Black 5 in the 1950s let alone a 1911 4-4-0
     
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