Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society

I have sent a request for a reply to this. Will post what I get. Meanwhile here is a link to a diagram of the Class 58 chassis matched to the 10000 bogies: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ktBuPFWAtxOvWyUxjQubBVxfn4BpesWS

 

I received a reply from our engineer Paul Etherington. He is wary of discussing technical points in social media as it can quickly deteriorate into negativity. However he will be happy to discuss the project at our AGM or at an open evening we hope to arrange at Peak Rail this year. The Society is very much taking the approach similar to that of our friends in the Baby Deltic group, ie you will see it when it's done! As you will have seen from the technical drawing posted the other day, the Society has all the drawings necessary to make the required modification to the chassis to accept the new pivot and bolster requirements and maintain the proper appearance of Ivatts iconic design.

Andrew

 

Thanks for your response. I regret I’m unlikely to attend your AGM since I’m not a member and haven’t seen enough information (yet) to encourage me to join. I don’t doubt your engineers have thought it through, and I know what you mean about social media debates but there is also the risk of playing your cards so close to your chest that nobody outside your circle has a clue whether your plan is credible. Including potential new members and donors. The kind of information I was hoping for is nothing more than the kind of details provided by your Baby Deltic friends on their website:
http://www.thebabydelticproject.co.uk/the-project-in-greater-detail/4543667149

 

Thanks you for reply. I should mention that since the Society is a Charity, its AGM is open to the general public, not just members. I appreciate your input in this thread and over the next few days will collate a similar text to that you found on the Baby Deltic page, from those posts previously posted and published by the Society over the years.

Andrew

 

Thank you - I could not ask for a better response. Best wishes to the project.

 

The Project – About us.

The Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society exists to right the wrong when 10000 and 10001 were scrapped in the 1960s. The intention is to create 10000 once more using a genuine English Electric 16SVT engine and Class 58 locomotive 58022 as the chassis along with other English Electric parts from locos as they become available after retirement from main line use.

The Society was formed in 2011 and as its President is honoured to have Mr Stanley Fletcher, a retired English Electric electrical engineer, who was involved in the commissioning trials for 10000.

The decision to build a new loco of this D16/1 type followed a detailed feasibility study by members which looked at viability and compatibility with present day legislation. It is important to note that the loco will not be a precise copy of 10000. We plan to build a locomotive that has the following key features:-

• The exterior appearance of the original locomotive.

• The sound of the original locomotive.

• The original characteristics of the locomotive as far as reasonably practicable whilst maintaining operability, maintainability and compliance with modern standards.

The project is inevitably a lengthy and complex engineering undertaking, but is entirely achievable.

We have evaluated one of 10000’s direct descendants in diesel locomotive design, the BR Class 58. This study established the 58’s suitability as a basis on which to re-create 10000 and has confirmed many similarities between the two designs. Both types of locos were designed at Derby, and some of the design staff were directly involved with both locomotive types. Both designs were drafted utilising the same ‘backbone’ load bearing main frame construction principle. Bogie centres are almost identical as is the distance between the cab bulkheads, and other critical dimensions.

Use of a Class 58 locomotive will reduce the time and cost of construction compared to a new build. It will also make possible the re-use of the mainframe, cooler group, and other parts towards a cost effective, maintainable and reliable core for the locomotive.

The natural choice for bogies are those available from former a BR Class 77 and currently in the hands of the EM2 Society. This design is almost identical to those of the D16/1 design. An independent engineering assessment of their condition has been provided. We have been in discussion with the EM2S over the years and are now fundraising in earnest.

The bogies will fit the Class 58 chassis although some structural design work will be necessary since the Class 58 bogies design differs from that of conventional locos involving rolling rings and secondary springs.

The English Electric 16SVT engine owned by the IDRS was originally built as a Rail Traction Locomotive power unit, on spec, for a potential overseas order, which was not confirmed. When English Electric received an order from the Ministry of Defence for standby generating sets the engines already built were reallocated to the government order. The unit was kept indoors and serviced regularly although it ran very low hours before sale to us. Therefore it is almost as good as new!

Timescale & Current status

The 16SVT engine and 58022 are both based at Rowsley South on the Peak Railway. As of April 2018 we hope to meet Peak Rail in the immediate future to discuss future arrangements in detail. This meeting should have already taken place but was thwarted by snow!

As a volunteer led project, completion of 10000 depends entirely on volunteer hours and donations. The Society has so far attracted £63,000 worth of donations and owns the 16SVT power unit and class 58 locomotive outright.

Much technical planning has been undertaken by dedicated volunteers, taking thousands of hours. However the project has tended to struggle to publicise its work and encourage fresh interest. From the summer of 2017 additional members have come on board, renewed the public face of the Society and invigorated fundraising.

The process of construction begins with a necessary period collecting components, which although not visually appealing, is necessary preliminary stage before construction begins properly. Stripping 58022 to its chassis and bogies is a task to be undertaken as soon as practical after which we can sell all unrequired parts. Upon purchase of the correct style bogies, they will be stripped of the traction motors, overhauled and painted. Meanwhile the search for components continues. Options exist for which traction motors to fit to 10000, depending largely on availability of parts.

At this stage, collection of components is of more of a priority than constructing the locomotive per se, even though such activity is not as photogenic.

Time is of the essence. Components from first generation diesel designs, particularly Classes 20 and 37 will only be available for a short time longer. Hence the Society is now urgently fundraising for both bogies and other parts.

Contact: ivattdiesel@LMS10000.org
www.LMS10000.org

 

As @Miff has commented above, if you are going down the route of little/no publicity to avoid criticism/negativity you will struggle to fund raise. Most donors like to receive regular updates on how their money is being used and the overall progress of the project if they are to continue supplying money or respond to special appeals.
Please also note that although the baby Deltic do provide updates on their website and Facebook, the project is funded by the members of the group and one cannot join as a member, if the 10000 project is going to use a similar funding strategy I think that should be made clear on your website/Facebook page (and to your membership!) and also make sure that your members are prepared to stump up the cost of the rebuild on their own!

All that being said, I wish you good luck with the project

Keith

 

That’s great - especially fascinating that some people were involved in building both the Ivatts and the Class 58. I will be making a small donation. I reckon you should put something similar on your website and donations pages. Best wishes.

 

Hello Keith, thanks for your reply. We hope to post as often as possible about developments - here along with on the website and social media.

As of this date we are awaiting a meeting with Peak Rail to confirm arrangements moving forward.

Meanwhile its down to each and every member, sorter and well-wisher to raise funds for kit that is still available. The usual story in heritage circles, I know. But very true and time critical in our case.

Thanks for your comments and encouragement.

Andrew

 

Is there a list of available kit and cost so that potential sponsors may buy a complete item rather than donate funds into a general fund ?

 

Not at this point. I know the kind of list you mean. It is on the AGM agenda to discuss. At this present point there are two items "bogies" and "items from classes 20 and 37" which of course covers a lot and their availability won't last forever. Hopefully the engineers can suggest items to sponsor.

 

We are grateful to Michael Prince, the Society Treasurer, for completing the Three Peaks Challenge yesterday with the aim of raising funds to purchase bogies for 10000. His time was 10 hours 40 mins.

If at all possible, please donate toward 10000's bogies. Thank you so much for those who have been able to donate so far.

The donation page is https://www.totalgiving.co.uk/appeal/MPrinceWalk2018

Pictures of the walk are on our website or via on social media accounts.

Andrew

 

The AGM is this Saturday 28th April 1pm

York Suite - Aston Court Hotel, Derby, DH1 2SL

Before 12 we will meet in the hotel lounge. After 12 the York Suite will be open for us

 

Good News. Our President Stan Fletcher has agreed to share his recollections of 10000 with us. He was a commissioning engineer with English Electric.
Member Martin Holtby has agreed to digitally record a number of conversations with Stan, from which articles can be composed at a later time.

If you have any questions for Stan please leave them here

 

Mark Walker, Chairman of the Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society released a statement this week, clarifying the Society's decision regarding the question of Mainline vs Heritage-only running for 10000.


Mainline / Heritage operation of 10000 Date 2nd May 2018


Following the Society AGM held on Saturday 28th April, we can now make the following statement regarding the future operation of 10000;

At this time, the position agreed by the society is that 10000 will not operate on the mainline.


Several reasons for this decision were discussed at the AGM, the key points being;

· To recreate 10000 will be a very costly exercise. To create a mainline standard locomotive will increase those costs very significantly.

· Our aim is to recreate 10000 as closely as possible to the original. Mainline operation would require a number of additional alterations to meet modern safety standards, which would detract significantly from that aim.

· The benefits of mainline operation do not justify the cost and alterations required. Other operators are already experiencing difficulties finding enough business for their locomotives, and we cannot expect to benefit from the type of interest raised by mainline steam operation.

· By the standards of todays railway, 10000 will not be a particularly powerful engine, with an engine rated at 1,600hp. It would not be practical, or in the interests of the locomotive, to operate the size of trains we would require to generate the necessary revenue.

· Maintenance costs for a mainline standard locomotive are significantly higher than for operation on heritage railways, and as stated above, mainline running is not expected to bring in high levels of revenue.


I realise that this statement will be a disappointment to some, but I hope you will understand the reasons given, and continue to support us as we recreate the legend that was, and will be, LMS 10000.


Mark Walker

Chair, Ivatt Diesel Recreation Society




Original copy available https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WDct_VJ8xQc0dQ6Wtm77_-xcq1rp3CLZ

 

Having been involved with similar discussions within the D&EPG during its early days I agree that heritage line running is the best option for a secure future. That said will the locomotive be capable of being moved on the national network when visiting heritage line(s) or will such transfers between sites necessitate road haulage ?

 

Presumably not under its own power, but I don’t see why it couldn’t be towed, subject to VAB sign off. Afterall, the Wainwright C Class was transferred by rail to from East Grinstead, up the Brighton mainline, through Clapham Junction and round London to Kings Cross!

Tom

 

Yes the intention is for it to be kept on a mainline connected site, for this reason. The 16SVT power unit and the chassis (class 58) are at Rowsley South on the PeakRail, which is mainline connected.

 

Thank you for the reply

 

The new website is up at www.LMS10000.co.uk for the Ivatt Diesel Re-creation Society