If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

NRM York Regeneration

Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by Dan Hamblin, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So I know someone who was asked to present their work as part of a museum exhibition. A couple of things that came out of this:

    The average viewer spends around 15 seconds looking at a exhibit so you have to convey whatever you want to convey in 15 seconds of viewing time.

    The instructions on pitching it was 'for an intelligent 12 year old'.
     
  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,492
    Likes Received:
    23,722
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    In which case, the NRM has some way to go on interpretation given the amount of filling in I had to do yesterday with two intelligent 12 year olds.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  3. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,634
    Likes Received:
    1,921
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    1. It is not a children's play area.
    2. Do you have a quote handy to design and fix a "steam shed" facade to the Shildon building?
    3. Museums are for everyone, not just railway enthusiasts.
     
  4. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I can't comment on that but was just passing on the thinking of museum directors/management when it comes to trying to convey specialised knowledge to non-specialists.

    My own view is that there is an incorrect assumption that people can't or won't do complexity or ambiguity. (You only need to look at public history to see this). But for example when it comes to railway history, we tend to be very good at technical history and piss-poor when it comes to the telling the story of social, economic and cultural side of it.

    As I've said before, we are very good at recreating the 'nice bits' of the past but we rarely if ever reflect on the less pleasant aspects of railway history.
     
    andrewshimmin, 35B and Greenway like this.
  5. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,275
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    Which, of course, they never can be. As already implied a museum's management have to decide their priorities. In the past their policies were unashamedly elitist but now they are populist. This is unsurprising considering our contemporary culture. I think it is the wrong approach but there are good reasons for it.
     
    andrewshimmin and Johnb like this.
  6. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It will be interesting to hear what feed back 35B has from the perspective of taking children to visits such as the NRM, i can remember taking my brother, and sisters kids to museums and to steam railways, in every occation, the live steam gave them a more interesting learning experience, or was it that their uncle just happened to know the crew, and was able to give them an bit of an hands on experience,and to explain things , why things work the way they do,
    In my view, The workshop should have been given over to Ian Riley , wasn't he looking for a new location before he moved? this would have given an extra string to the NRM'S engineering and teaching side, as those older students who have an interest in engineering, will see not only be able to understand the theory from looking at the likes of 35029, but from the viewing galley see how wheels are removed, bearings remetaled machined , and of course it will give the museum a mainline fleet home based at york, 3 black 5's, an A4, Scotsman, which of course is a york Engine anyway, plus visiting engines, so a small degree of live action , is possible and of course its all educational, york needs to adopt to a new age, that of being more hands on more information etc, but at the same time it needs to reflect past glories, to the majority of visitors, what is more informative? the sight and smell of coal, hot oil and steam, or a screen that explains it in scientific detail?
     
    damianrhysmoore and Johnb like this.
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,492
    Likes Received:
    23,722
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My feedback, from 12 years of visits with my son and yesterday with a friend of his.

    I’ve taken him since he was in nappies, and it’s always been a good day out. Whether for specific exhibitions, or just fun, he’s always liked it and so have I. Given his age, it’s been fairly general stuff, but he’s built an awareness of railways. His little sister, 2 years younger hasn’t, but she hasn’t caught my love of railways either.

    Yesterday was our first visit for a couple of years, and prompted by the visit of the capsule that Tim Peake used to return to Earth. He and his friend enjoyed the museum, but the explanatory boards did little to guide.

    As for a long time, Ellerman Lines was out of action; one of the “explainers” did a good job of talking through the basics, but the crumbling edge of quality was visible with the electric motors still not working, and numbered cards being missing.

    The space devoted to under 5s has risen since my last visit, as had the catering. No big deal to me, but I was left with a slight feeling of priorities being out of kilter.

    An interesting comparison was formed with the English Heritage run Cold War bunker in the suburb of Acomb. This has little to catch the eye, but is a unique survivor of the regional command centres of the Royal Observer Corps. Visits are by guided tour only, about an hour long, and are fairly Spartan in nature; the video at the start is pretty stark about what nuclear war means.

    I will remember that visit far more than my trip to the NRM. Why? Because it had a simpler story to tell, with fewer resources, and focused single mindedly on doing so in a way that worked for the generalist and the specialist.

    However, I will go back to the NRM. I may well not return to Acomb. One told me a whole story, the other has new elements to see every time I visit.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Bean-counter and Bluenosejohn like this.
  8. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,316
    Likes Received:
    16,391
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The interest factor and the way everything is explained either by information cards or by the volunteers is also better at Bletchley Park. I find it fascinating as it was an unknown story until a few years ago. It's not dumbed down like the NRM and I will be going back there.
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    i wonder, is the NRM suffering from the " London effect" by that i mean, the science museum's eye is on its London base, its on South Kensington, rather than on York, and dictates are just handed down, " you must improve the under 5's activites, or you must increase the retail actities to make up for funding shortfulls, it may work for London, with its high tourist numbers, so how do you cater to the under fives, well theres one shore way a thomas event, with cinima , dont the NRM have a cinema coach? and hire a thomas , it don't need to be in steam, tell the story of railways that way, prehaps they can also show some peppa pig movies also during half term time, ( OPTIONAL HOG ROAST) ( Mama pig gets run over because she didnt observe the passage of trains before crossing the line by Thomas and Percy ) :oops:
    But joking apart, isnt the best way to teach railways to use actors reading thomas stories etc, of course a cinema coach ( mk 1 conversion) could have other uses, rail films, etc, rather than dumbing down , aim to educate
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  10. ssk2400

    ssk2400 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    electrical engineer
    Location:
    South cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was at the Nrm last year and was far from impressed I just seemed a cold sole less place , I have been going there since the early 80s but somehow the last time it seemed different it was totally devoid of any atmosphere and certainly didn't want to inspire us to go back ( though we will when we go back for our annual Xmas shopping trip to York this year )
    I have no idea what the way forward is but unless they do something I will not inspire visitors
    There again I use to prefer steamtown in the 70s to York that was a place with atmosphere
     
    Shaggy likes this.
  11. William Fletcher

    William Fletcher Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    237
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lincoln
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Has it occred to anyone thst he changes might well make the place better and address some of the issues mnetioned?
     
  12. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,634
    Likes Received:
    1,921
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh come on! This is an internet forum an the keyboard warriors must have their (negative) say. Stop making sensible suggestions like that ;)
     
  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    When I visit railway museums, the lack of fish on display is usually a prerequisite... :)


    Keith
     
  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The last time I went to the NRM it was for the A4 thing but in the end the A4s were pretty much impossible to see, vast numbers of angry elderly men shouting because their precious photos had been ruined. All in all an unpleasant atmosphere and it was nice to see the locos but you didn't really learn very much.

    I guess it must have brought in plenty of people as the place was packed. And I do recognise the need to do the pile em in, pack up high activities to fund some of the expensive and niche things like conservation.

    What was more interesting for us was the artifacts room and just looking at different things, and also the workshop. Some of the newer locos they've brought in since I was last there in the 1980s.

    Fundamentally, to go back to @35B comment about Acomb. A museum that has a very clear purpose and story to tell. I don't think that the NRM knows what its purpose is or what story it is trying to tell. I know I've mentioned Weald and Down before - but this is a museum with a very clear idea as to what it wants to tell people and how it wants to tell it. I can not think of a single railway museum or even preserved railway that has a vision about what story it wants to tell and how it wants to tell it. You go to a National Trust property and you are getting a clear story that is being presented.

    NRM, perhaps due to being connected to Science Museum, views the story of railways through a purely technical/scientific lens, but at the same time it collects everything. I am unsure if it is telling a UK story, an international story, a genesis and development story, or if it is just a storage warehouse for big shiny metal things.

    Bottom line - what is the purpose of NRM and what is it trying to do and how does it want to do it?
     
  15. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,492
    Likes Received:
    23,722
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was also at the Great Gathering, and thought it an excellent event. But I didn't expect to get great photos, as I knew it would be on Open Day rules.

    You then ask what the NRM is for - or indeed preserved railways. I suspect if you asked this audience - or that on any other forum - you'd get a lot of engineering/operational answers - yet they only tell us how the railways worked, not why they were built or what they were for.

    But you also compare them to other establishments. I was a child last time I went to Singleton, so can't comment on the Weald & Downland Museum. Assuming that it is as you suggest - and feedback from others suggests it is - then I think you are being unfair in comparing it to most National Trust properties of my experience. Their stories are much more focused, both in geography and in nature. And if my local, Belton House, is anything to go by, not that brilliant at expanding beyond the life of the house (family + servants) into how the property and it's people fitted into the wider local & national environment.
     
  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As has been said, ask 100 people "what should the NRM be?" you will get 100 different answers from steam everything, to conserve everything, and everything in between, My view is That The NRM should be about the history of railways, to modern day, and that can be done in numerous ways, hands on, educational films,( very good for showing the way railways impacted everyday life) it should also explain the technical aspects, such as signaling, how the use of tablet and block prevented accidents, then the advent of modern signaling, and have knowledgeable staff able to give talks on specialist subjects, prehaps this should be a first step before you even see the exibits, a lecture room and large cinema type room , that could also be used for functions, so school trips etc, are structured, filmss, and talks before you go into the great hall, then at least visitors would have an idea of the basics, then use of simulated signaling boxes footplates would give a fun hands on experience it has to be a journey, cold highly polished engines around a turnable won't cut it for many visitors, these days a museum needs to be informative and alive and imagine if say on certain days, part of the tour was that you could go on the footplate of a mainline engine in steam if it was in light steam or you could watch the preparation of an engine before a rail-tour . York needs to have access to live engines , thats why the engineering workshop needs to be retained , and operated .
     
    Shaggy likes this.
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I thought the Great Gathering was nice, I wasn't very interested in getting good photos because I knew it wouldn't be possible. It was a day out with a relative who grew up on the ECML in the 1950s and who likes A4s for that reason.

    My point about Singleton is that it has a singular vision to present a broad view, where as say an NT house has a singular vision to present a very narrow view. NRM I don't think it has a vision as to what it is presenting.

    I agree that ask people on this forum you would get an emphasis on the technical side because this is the dominant narrative, social or economic railway history is very much a fringe field.

    For example @martin1656 talks about safety which is a really interesting story to tell, and yes we can focus on the technical side, but what about things like working hours, union development and involvement, the place of education (ie the problem of illiterate staff) etc etc. I am sure that for many this side of the story is 'boring'.

    I'd argue that there is a difficulty that railways face that say Singleton or a medieval castle doesn't have. The audience at a railway museum will generally go from people who know that it is a train, to people who will have very sophisticated and detailed knowledge. It is very hard to appeal to all the punters. I'd argue that the hardcore rural medievalists are fairly small in number and most people who go to Singleton have very little knowledge of C14 rural life, or C12 castle life (beyond say the basics). I'd argue castles maybe suffer from the similar problem as railways in the their military/royal function is the one that is focused on more than any other roles they may have fulfilled.
     
    Bean-counter likes this.
  18. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You're probably right, but when I first visited the NRM probably about 15 years ago (aged 4ish!) I seem to remember a lot more engines in the great hall than now, and it was awe-inspiring walking in the shadows of huge locomotives, packed in just like they ere on shed. It's probably me but having missed out on bunking sheds I've never been upset if engines are crammed in so photos are hard, I'm quite happy to trade that for the feeling of being in a steam shed. For me, I distinctly recall being up in the cab was the highlight, in as many locos as Dad could lift me up onto (whether I was allowed to or not I suspect!). Indeed the only disappointments for the 4 year old me were leaving, and getting my photos back from the chemist (yes I am just about old enough for that!) which were all a bit dark and flashy, but it was my first time with a camera. Would I have enjoyed it more with this wondotechnolab thingy? Probably, yes. But equally I'd probably have enjoyed it more if there was a loco in steam as well and I could pull the whistle chain or whatever, and that would appeal to the me now too!
     
    Bean-counter likes this.
  19. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    one way forward, as Mentioned by Monkey Magic , would be structured visits, aimed more at technical school and simular, aged pupils, take signaling etc, yes railways were amoungst the first to have school facilities where staff could learn, MIT ,The NHS were as i understand it based on the GWR health system, so there are a lot of side history that is just as important as the exhibits
     
  20. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,609
    Likes Received:
    11,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    just imagine then, if you were allowed to go onto your namesake, open the draincocks ( very important) select 75 percent cut off, full forward gear, a short hoot of the whistle and open the regulator and( under instruction) trundle down the yard :)
     
    flying scotsman123 likes this.

Share This Page