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Heritage Line Loco Power Requirements

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by johnofwessex, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    You have "told" me other things before, seemingly under the influence of "big chufferitis", just as I have "told" you that for 90% of tourist railways, large motive power wastes money.

    PH
     
  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Given the age of all locos apart from Tornado, what are the economics of building new boilers? I know a number of Terriers have been reboilered in preservation
     
  3. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    She was stranded at Bridgnorth for a while, and then we escaped! I can't remember all the details but she went to some other lines to earn some money while the railway was effectively closed. She was at the GCR in the February, and the WSR in the October. On her return to the SVR she went to Kidderminster and was used on the southern section of the line, unaffected by the floods, and as the only 'big' engine there, had quite a bit of usage, especially on the Santas.
     
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  4. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Thanks, I remember now. I could remember it was stranded but had forgotten it went out on loan and that it went to Kidderminster after, I could remember she wasn't at the ASG that year though.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Returning to the thread title, and arguably this is a minor matter, those heritage lines that receive main line charters have another dimension to consider, namely the loading on these visiting trains. (Sorry if this has been raised already)

    It is generally the case that if a steam charter visits a heritage railway, the hope is that the main line loco will be able to come off to be serviced rather than have to run on the line as well. The only lines I can think of where that is consistently not the case are Peak Rail and the Dartmouth Steam Railway. So in these cases you do need something that will haul more than the usual shorter rake. That, in itself is not a good enough reason to have something larger than a 3P but it does help.
     
  6. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    These tables were published in SVR News 152, and were supposedly the complete history to 2004 (note – the two right hand columns were transposed).
    Mileage table 1.jpg
    Mileage table 2.jpg
    However there appear to be some discrepancies from earlier reported totals up to 1993, such as missing mileages for 600 and 686 in 1983 among others. 42968’s mileage for 1997 was shown as 5,571 rather than 4,471 – presumably another discrepancy in the table?

    The only other years that have been published in SVR News are 2013 to 2015. 2857 finished with the highest mileage each time (10,624, 10,477 and 10,828). 43106 also clocked 10,247 miles in 2015).
     
  7. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    It would also be fair to say that certain groups such as the SMF and the EMF get their locos overhauled more regularly because they have been more proactive at fund raising.
     
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  8. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    Indeed and doesn't this suggest that the mileage figure is largely irrelevant so far as boilers are concerned?
     
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  9. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

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    This is a very important point. Loco owners are becoming increasingly aware of this. I wonder as a result whether the concept of the "weekend railway" run mostly by volunteers is going to be realistic for the future. If you can only offer Wednesday-Saturday-Sunday in peak season then cooling down time between use is going to be an issue....

    Regards

    Matt
     
  10. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not impossible to do with volunteers, GWSR run 6 days a week in the summer holidays, and 5 for much of the peak season not including fire and drive experiences etc. all with volunteers. I accept that lines more in the sticks who struggle for volunteers find this more difficult though! But it is possible in certain circumstances which we're lucky enough to enjoy.

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  11. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Presumably though the loco could be left with a very small fire in it to keep the boiler warm between use?
     
  12. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    For short trips and low power (and high tractive effort) future short railways like Bluebell etc there is another way.
    Stephenson boilers do not like temperature changes to much.A simple cylindrical pressure wessel with insulation as used on fireless locomotives is insensitive.
    It can be charged from stationary boilers at both ends of journey.
    To smell like a steam locomotive,coal can be used to superheat the steam.
    It is much less strennous to heat steam inside pipes than to keep a stephenson ,stayed firebox in good health.
     
  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    You are joking, right?


    Keith
     
  14. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Or put a diesel engine in the tender, paint it blue and put a face on it.:eek:
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    On past form, no!
     
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  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    A lot of interesting comment and opinion and now I'm back from hols and on a PC, time for my thoughts, FWIW.
    Main line steam locos are generally good for at least 80,000 miles (smaller wheeled locos pro rata) and that should be what they should be run to achieve. You'll also find that your boiler will be getting in need of an overhaul, as well at this mileage. That's not a new thought, the main line railways realised this many years ago. The heritage railway movement has got its head around 10 year periods because of a remit from the Railway Inspectorate back in the 1970's following the major boiler incident with 6697. Because there was no legal requirement on overhaul periods heritage railways were running boilers without overhauling them. BR usually overhauled its boilers every 3-4 years because that's when the locos clocked up the necessary mileage. However, BR had a caveat that no boiler should go more than seven years without overhau to cover low mileage locos. The Railway Inspectorate took this as a reasonable norm with the fundamental requirement that no boiler should go more than ten years, which is where we get the mythical ten years from.
    Because of this ten year mindset within the movement, loco owners/operators generally set out to achieve this and, on that basis, an ideal mileage would be 8000 miles per year. Is this necessarily the right approach, though? Where possible, should we not run a loco for as many miles as we can each year and look to doing both boiler and mechanical overhauls at 80-85,000 miles, even if this occurs after only 4-5 years? With many heritage railways, that would be a hard thing to achieve but there are some where this would be a sensible approach, the NYMR, especially and, in some ways, it is starting to do this.
    Heritage railways also fall into the trap of dismantle and overhaul. As an example, the NYMR does a piston and valve exam on its locos every year. It does this in the closed season for obvious reasons. In BR days, these were done every 20-25,000 miles but for the NYMR to wait until that mileage was achieved might mean withdrawing a loco for a P & V part way through the peak season. So, every year, a loco gets a strip down of its motion, etc., even if it is nowhere near the specified mileage. Things will be worn, but not down to point where overhaul is necessary. However, having dismantled the thing, you aren't going to put something back that is part worn so bearings, etc, are all fettled and brought back to 'as new' standard. This is a common approach, not just on the NYMR but on heritage railways in general. It does maintain these parts of the loco in a reasonable condition but is probably unnecessary in terms of time and expense and, because it isn't a full overhaul, untouched components, such as axleboxes, will continue to wear and deteriorate.
    As for the number of locos that a railway needs, it has to be a function of the number required in traffic at any one time, generally related to a peak season demand. Thus, if you need four all week for your peak season, you need these plus a loco on washout (assuming a 28 day cycle). That leaves no standby capacity so you need extra to cover for breakdowns and repairs. Because it is a cottage industry with no Crewe works to provide immediate spares, even simple breakdowns, such as a broken spring, can be protracted and lead to lengthy periods out of service. The law of sod also applies and breakdowns rarely occur singularly. As an Engineer, for a four loco service, I'd want to have an available fleet of at least seven and preferably eight locos to see me through the peak season. This would also allow such things as P & V exams to be done on a mileage basis as and when required, and not when time allows.
    To sum up, then, I would maximise the annual mileage on newly overhauled locos, reducing it as they wear so that they become the ever so necessary standby locos. I would endeavour to do overhauls and examinations on a mileage basis and not time but would not have a problem with keeping a well worn loco on standby until it reaches that arbitrary ten years if I needed it to provide that back up.
     
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  18. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    What was the incident with 6697?
     
  19. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    IIRC it suffered a collapsed flue tube.
     
  20. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    On a pedantic note, I believe that in BR days the normal MAXIMUM boiler life was considered as five years, but this was extendable following a favourable inspection by twelve months, and a further twelve months if another inspection proved satisfactory. But that was it; no more extensions were permissible after seven years were up.
     

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