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Heritage Line Loco Power Requirements

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by johnofwessex, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is any doubt that the best/most economical way to operate boilers is for them to be in daily use between washouts so that until stopped for that they are never cold or even out of steam. To achieve that a particular loco needs to be in use everyday for 28, 30 or however many days your washout frequency specifies. Weekend or other more occasional steamings are bad news as is non RO water to varying degrees.

    There is of course a considerable fuel saving by using locos continuously through a washout cycle by not having to heat everything from ambient temperature at each steaming.
     
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  2. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Or perhaps a form of strategic reserve which can be drawn upon as circumstances, personalities, finances etc change........
     
  3. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    Hi @Bean-counter, im not understanding the desirability of less than a certain number of miles per annum part of it (and I think this is what @Jimc is referring to as well?). If an overhaul will need to be carried out at say 80 000, does it make a difference how fast it racks up those miles as long as the maintenance regime is sufficient?

    Out of my depth a bit here so I'm probably missing something simple!
     
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  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    perhaps but if the locos have been brought up to museum standard for display isn't it more likely they will overhaul the mucky ones just out of service?
     
  5. olly5764

    olly5764 Well-Known Member

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    If only overhaul requirements were as simple as just working out annual mileage. Yes the mileage will have an effect (more miles will cause more wear obviously) but there are so many other issues, how hard the loco has been worked (down to loading, geography and manning), the original build quality (some designs are more prone to wear / breakage than others, look at Derby axle boxes or the frames on the GWR 45xx and 4575s as prime examples) and unforseen problems such as lubrication issues, accidental damage and so on throughout the period in service.
     
  6. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Is there a "multiple like" button for this comment?
     
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  7. 8126

    8126 Member

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    I think the basic assumption here is that you don't want to be doing boiler lifts any more often than is legally required, since it's a major job that inherently takes a lot of time, labour and thus cost (either in actual money or volunteer time, which is money by another name because you could be using it on something else). Also, boiler lifts are usually seen as a good opportunity to get the loco off its wheels and attend to the axleboxes, so you want those to run the mileage between boiler lifts.

    Therefore, the preference is for a loco that can happily run an intensive diagram as described by @1472 (racking up a lot of miles but maximising the boiler life) and only require relatively straightforward preventative maintenance to keep it in good order for the mythical ten years.

    Since there are relatively few locos which can do this, you have to consider the best way of arranging the mileage of a less-than-ideal fleet. The advantage with running something like the Bluebell's H-class at an annual mileage that will allow it to go to ten years is that because it dictates a bigger running fleet at any one time (for the same total number of overhauls) you have more margin in the fleet to cover failures. If the O1 fails and the H does a high mileage for a month or two while the O1 is put right, as long as you balance them back out afterwards everything's fine. Whereas if you arranged it so that the H did five years intensively and then the O1 did five years, there's no cover if either fails. This is a very simplistic way of representing it - the Bluebell has a much bigger fleet than that and the two engines actually have staggered tickets - but there's a certain advantage in arranging the overhauls and mileage so as to maximise the margin for error.

    If you're thinking that by my logic, having two pre-grouping engines is better than one BR Standard which could do the equivalent total mileage between overhauls, remember that the BR Standard saves you an overhaul. It's all about making the best use of what there is available.
     
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  8. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    Ok, so all things being equal, it is more about maximising the ten year window. So very simply, if overhaul is desirable for whatever reason at say 80000 miles, you might try for average of 8000 miles per year.

    Thank you :)
     
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  9. Andy2857

    Andy2857 Member

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    The phrase "paint don't make em go" springs to mind. The quality of paint job/general cleanliness of a loco is going to be a long way down the list of considerations as to whether a loco should be brought back into traffic
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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  10. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    @8126 has put across my point very well.

    On the face of it, @Jimc is correct - the amount of mechanical wear, being largely related to mileage (and, of course, type of work being undertaken by the loco but I think we are effectively taking that as a constant for a given railway, and quality of handling!), if 2 locos share the work, then that should double the interval between major mechanical work. However, as @8126 has stated, a major factor is getting best value out of the 10 years between internal and external boiler exams. This is particularly true as locos head towards the major 'once every 40 years' work - getting the maximum return on the boiler spend by maximising usage. @1472 is also correct to highlight the value of sustained use in terms of boiler conservation.

    In recent years, the cost of boiler work has usually dwarfed mechanical repair costs and certainly high mileage locos will receive mechanical attention at a number of points during the 10 year 'ticket'. In theory, and especially if you look at ultimate costs, not just what needs spending now (e.g. using one loco with new tyres for 100,000 miles will see less cash spent than 2 for 50,000 each, both of which need their tyres renewing part way through the 50,000 but the wear put on the tyres from 100,000 miles is, ignoring differences in loco design and how well this 'fits' with the line they are operating, the same even if when remedial expenditure is needed is differently timed), there is a 'fixed' cost per mile mechanically, certainly for a given loco or class on a given railway. The equivalent measure for boilers (which again have replacement small tubes and the like during a 'ticket' without being full stripped or even removed from the frames) is in effect 'cost per year of 'ticket''. Don't use the loco and, if you store it badly, the next boiler overhaul will cost more and boiler costs have been the larger part of overhaul costs. So extra mechanical wear, repairs and hence cost are taken as being necessary to maximise return on boiler investment.

    Going forward, I suspect 'mechanical' costs will grow as more locos need major attention to frames, wheelsets, motion and cylinders but many of these items are 'good' for probably 100,000s of miles before needing major renewals, and for most locos, the point at which major renewals in these areas area needed have yet to be reached, although some are there already! It may well be that, with extensive and effective boiler repairs being made, overhauls tip towards mechanical costs for a while, and I suspect a 'long term' position is a closer balance between mechanical and boiler than we are seeing now but with boiler still the largest.

    Steven
     
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  11. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Quite right Andy, but the locos that are done up nicely to sit on a plinth are generally there because its too difficult/ too expensive to get then working for the particular owner. The amount of time/money/ effort that a particular owner has at their disposal probably as important as the condition of the Loco. hence Blue Peter will be steaming in the not too distant future Union of South Africa will not
     
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  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    No. Most railways have a list and locos are overhauled in rotation.
     
  13. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    And in a way that is the crux of the argument against new builds for our cash strapped heritage railways. An existing loco is very unlikely to need all its mechanical components replacing at any one particular overhaul and the majority of the locos sat out of use have hundreds of thousands of miles left in their main basic components. That allows spending at a rate which can be assimilated.

    Conversely a new build (built commercially) needs a big slug of cash upfront with no return until the loco is complete and out working.
     
  14. olly5764

    olly5764 Well-Known Member

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    I must add most of the our locos do their full ten year, and a good many get extensions on their tickets and to 10.5 - 11 but yes they are getting up towards 90000 miles in that time these days, you'd be tempted to throw your car away at that!
     
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  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Undoubtedly, your case is sound from a purely financial standpoint.... however.... the point has been well made elsewhere that many decisions are emotionally based, which doesn't always mesh well with what any given railway might better use, be it a loco, carriage or wagon. It's up to individuals how they dispose of their time and money. The day that stops being the case is the day much voluntary input evaporates.
     
  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I can quote only 2968's annual mileages:

    [​IMG]

    As can be seen, mileages tend to be on the increase.

    The low mileage in 1994 reflects time out of traffic for tyre replacement. Note that 1996-1998 included 14 main line runs and Steam on the Met in the last year.
     
  17. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    I remember the mileages appearing in the SVR news a while back and it showed the same trend of increased mileage.

    As a side note, particularly impressed with 42968's miles in 2007 considering that was the year of the flood damage, it must of had some intensive use at some point because wasn't it marooned at Bridgnorth too?
     
  18. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    While I agree with your answer of no, I don't think it's true to say most railways have a list and locos are overhauled in rotation, the SVR is a good example, some smaller overhauls regularly jump the queue and if it was done on rotation then Gordon wouldn't be permanently bottom!!!
     
  19. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Gordon, listening to lobby discusion, is that not many crews like it from an operational viewpoint. There is no groundswell seeeking its restoration
     
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  20. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    I know, hence why I mentioned it being bottom. Gordon the big blue ..... :D
     

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