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Numbers of locos in railway company fleets

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by andrewshimmin, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to work out how many locos the various pre-grouping companies had. My idea is to find out how many they each contributed to the big four at the grouping.
    Now I know that I could find out the numbers from various books (e.g. the Casserley volumes) but was feeling lazy and wondering if someone has already done it and can point me to it?
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    On the Southern Railway, the respective totals were:

    LSWR as at 31/12/1922 - 912
    LBSCR as at 31/12/1922 - 620
    SR (Eastern section) as at 1/7/1923 - 730

    I can't find an SECR total as at 31/12/1922, so have given the SR (Eastern section) total from six months later, but for reference the SR (Western) total at the same date was 906; and the SR (Central) total 618 - i.e. there had been no more than a few locos change in the preceding six months, so I guess the SECR total as at the grouping was not too far from 730. I could count it up if you want a strictly accurate figure. The figures are for those in capital or duplicate stock, not extant designs - for example, the LBSCR figure only includes those Terriers still in LBSCR stock at that time, not those that had been sold to minor railways or other concerns, some of which ended up coming back into SR stock at a later date. Likewise Adams Radial Tank 488 isn't included in the LSWR figures as it was owned by the East Kent Railway at the time.

    31/12/1922 figures are from Bradley; 1/7/1923 figures from Holcroft.

    I can't immediately lay my hands on my IoW loco history, but that was to a degree a self-contained system anyway. The PD&SWJR had been absorbed by the LSWR before 1922, so I think their three locos are already included in the LSWR total. There were also four narrow gauge locos absorbed from the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway.

    Tom
     
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  3. Mencken

    Mencken New Member

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    From Rixon Bucknall's Our Railway History (1945) with figures said to be "largely collected from various editions of The Railway Year Book" the total of locomotives "at the time of the grouping" were:

    L&NWR 3336
    GWR 3148
    MR 3019
    NER 2001
    L&YR 1650
    GCR 1361
    GNR 1359
    GER 1341
    NBR 1107
    CR 1067
    L&SWR 931
    LB&SCR 615
    SE&CR 724
    G&SWR 529
    HR 173
    GNSR 122
    M&GNJ 101
    S&DJ 86

    I haven't checked these against other sources, but hope they help.

    Harry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
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  4. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Some more with about 100 or more in Wales:

    Barry 148
    Cambrian 99
    Rhymney 123
    Taff Vale 274
     
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  5. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff gents, thank you. Anyone got GCR, Furness or North Staffs?
    Also how many Southern locos at nationalisation?
     
  6. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    the Cardiff rly joined the GWR in 1922 so I imagine their locos are included in the GWR figure.
     
  7. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    The GWR amalgamation took place in 1922 a year earlier than the rest, so the year end stock total was 3901.

    I was only going to bother listing the constituents contributing over 100 locos but thought it a bit mean to leave out the Cambrian just one short!

    Others GWR absorbed companies were

    Cardiff. 36
    MSWJR 29
    CMDPR. 2
    B&M. 47
    N&B 15
    R&SBR. 37
    PTR. 22
    ADR. 39
    SWMR. 5
    Ll&MMR. 8
    BP&GVR. 15
    Gwendraeth Valleys Rly. 2
    Swansea Harbour. 14
    Powlesland and Mason Ltd 9

    The last 5 in the above list weren't taken over until 1923.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    A slightly difficult question to answer as there were a number of pre-grouping locos nominally taken into BR stock but which were to all intents and purposes scrap.

    However, my adding up of SR stock as at 31/12/1947 is as follows. All raw data about withdrawal dates (and by inference, stock as at Nationalisation) are from Bradley, but processed by me - any mistakes are mine.

    SR built (incl. SR-built locos to SECR or LSWR designs; and E1R and N15x rebuilds) - 519
    Ex-SER - 88
    Ex-LCDR - 31
    Ex-SECR - 294
    Ex-LBSCR - 380
    Ex-LSWR - 527
    Ex-PD&SWJ - 3
    =============
    1842 (incl. 2 mainline electric locos and 3 diesel-electric shunting locos

    If I have added up correctly, that is 1,837 steam locomotives that entered BR stock - interestingly, that is fewer than entered SR stock in 1923. I assume that reflects widespread electrification during the Maunsell / Walker era meaning there was a smaller requirement for steam locomotives by 1948, particularly suburban tank engines. A significantly large number of the pre-grouping engines (especially ex-SER, ex-LCDR and ex-LBSCR) were broken up in 1948 - 1951 (some of which probably never ran in revenue service for BR), to be replaced by London Midland and later BR Standard 2-6-2T and 2-6-4T locos; and cascading of more modern SECR and LSWR tank engines.


    SR

    Bulleid

    Merchant Navy - 20
    WC / BoB - 70
    Q1 - 40
    CC1/CC2 Electric locos - 2
    ========
    132

    Maunsell
    Lord Nelson - 16
    King Arthur - 54
    Schools - 40
    N - 68
    N1 - 6
    U (including SECR class K rebuilds) - 50
    U1 - 21 (including one rebuilt from SECR class K1)
    L1 - 15
    W - 15
    Z - 8
    Q - 20
    S15 - 25
    H15 - 15
    N15x - 7 (Rebuilt from Billinton class L 1934)
    E1R - 10 (Rebuilt from Stroudley E1 1927/28)
    USA - 14 (plus one acquired for spares and not part of capital stock)
    "Hecate" - 1
    350hp D/E Shunters - 3
    =======
    387


    Ex-SECR
    Maunsell

    S - 1 (1917 rebuild of C class No. 685 as an 0-6-0ST shunting engine)
    E1 - 11 (rebuilt from class E in 1920)
    D1 - 21 (Rebuilt from class D: 15 in 1921/22 and 6 in 1926/27)
    N - 12
    ========
    45

    Wainwright
    C - 107 (plus one rebuilt as S class)
    D - 28 (plus 21 rebuilt as class D1)
    H - 64
    P - 8
    E - 15 (plus 11 rebuilt as class E1)
    J - 5
    L - 22
    =========
    249

    Stirling (ex-SER; reboilered by Wainwright)
    O1 - 52
    F1 - 8
    R1 - 12
    B1 - 15
    Crane Tank - 1
    ===========
    88

    Kirtley (ex-LCDR)
    R - 15
    R1 - 13
    T - 3
    ===========
    31

    Ex-LBSCR
    Stroudley

    A1 (Terrier) - 1
    A1x (reboilered Terrier) - 15
    D1 - 18
    E1 - 30 (plus 10 rebuilt as E1R)
    =========
    64

    R.J. Billinton
    D3 / D3x - 29
    C2 / C2x - 48
    E3 - 16
    E4 - 74
    E5 / E5x - 28
    E6 / E6x - 12
    B4 / B4x - 19
    ==========
    226

    D.E. Marsh
    C3 - 8
    I1 / I1x - 18
    I3 - 26
    H1 - 3
    H2 - 6
    J - 2
    ======
    63

    L. Billinton
    E2 - 10
    K - 17
    (Plus 7 class L 4-6-4T rebuilt as N15x - see SR section)
    ======
    27


    Ex-LSWR
    Beattie

    0298 - 3
    =======
    3

    Adams

    0415 - 3
    T1 - 14
    O2 - 48
    0395 - 18
    A12 - 4
    B4 (inc. Drummond K14) - 25
    G6 - 34
    ======
    141

    Drummond
    T9 - 66
    L12 - 20
    D15 - 10
    K10 - 31
    L11 - 40
    S11 - 10
    T14 - 9
    700 - 30
    M7 - 104
    C14 - 3
    ========
    323

    Urie
    H15 - 11
    N15 - 20
    S15 - 20
    G16 - 4
    H16 - 5
    ========
    60

    Ex-PD&SWJR
    Hawthorn-Leslie 0-6-0T and 0-6-2T - 3
    ========
    3

    Tom
     
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  9. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks Tom, fascinating data. That list reminds me of the variety and interest of the SR's fleet. Less than a third built by the Southern, and as you say without the large suburban tank component which was present at 1923 (although as your list shows, many locos built for suburban duties were in service elsewhere on the SR).

    Anyone got the number of GWR locos at nationalisation?
    Also still looking for Furness, North Staffs and Great Central at Grouping.
     
  10. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    3856 GWR steam locos at nationalisation (again less than the total at grouping).
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It would be an interesting exercise to try and understand how much of that decline in absolute numbers could be attributed to:

    - Change in traffic patterns (for example, what happened to passenger-mile and ton-mile stats over the same period)
    - More efficient working diagrams (for example, I believe the development of Feltham Yard in late LSWR / early SR days reduced the amount of trip freight duties between north and south London)
    - Better availability of modern locos meaning fewer were needed to do the same work
    - Replacing smaller locomotives with larger ones, ditto
    - Backlog of expected levels of "new construction" during the war (that would require comparing, say, 1939 and 1945 totals)
    - Transfer to non-steam traction (electric on the SR; railcars on the GWR)

    Oh to be a DPhil student again!

    Tom
     
  12. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Possibly down to the contraction of the South Wales coalfield throughout the period as demand declined?
     
  13. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    In the GWR case almost certainly the decline in mineral traffic. During the 1930s quite a number of (mainly newly built) freight locos were in store for extended periods.

    (Dragon's post above, saying the same, was written simultaneously!)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  14. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    Also in South Wales and other places the GWR were replacing the local pickup goods trains with lorries coming out from the big towns.
     
  15. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Also improvements in the works to reduce the duration of overhauls, again increasing availability. KJ Cook, head of Swindon Works in the 30s and 40s also says that newer designs were cheaper and easier t overhaul.

    In Cook's book (which I don't have in front of me) I recall he mentions copping a lot of criticism for the number of locos awaiting repair ( I think when he was newly in charge of Swindon Works) and it being suggested that they sold scrap 200 of them and replace with new ones that would be easier to maintain. His counter was that since all the services had been run they should scrap 200 obsolete locomotives and not replace them at all, and I think he says that was what happened.

    Another approach is listed in one of Cox' books (also not n front of me) in which he says, as I recall, that Scottish division of LMS especially became expert at quick shed repairs to extend the time between general overhauls.
     
  16. Mencken

    Mencken New Member

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    Sorry Andrew, I somehow omitted the GCR figure in my list above - I've now inserted it: 1361 locos.

    Harry.
     
  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Really interesting stuff, thanks everyone.
    Lots of fun things you can do with these figures. I tried first a crude estimate of how "represented" each railway is in preservation:
    upload_2017-3-2_20-19-23.png
    What is surprising to me here is the inclusion of the Midland! I never realised how badly represented that line is. Maybe those 2P folks are onto something after all (although a nie Johnson 4-4-0 would be much nicer and could represent the M&GN too with a livery change and some artistic licence).
    When I excluded "older locos" in a slightly arbitrary manner (e.g. really old locos like Lion, Columbine, etc. up to about 1870ish) it is even more stark:
    upload_2017-3-2_20-22-58.png
    Perhaps this should give some direction to new-build projects....? The Barry and Rhymney had some nice and eminently useful tank locos, the Cambrian had some elegant 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s, the M&GN those 4-4-2Ts, GCR lovely 4-4-2Ts and 4-6-2Ts, the GSWR's 4-4-0s were nice, a Furness 4-6-4T might be fun, and the LNWR already has the George the Fifth projects (and the Bloomer). But based on my analysis, my ideas of usefulness, and personal preference I would say top priority is a Midland Johnson 0-4-4T! One was laid aside for preservation, but sadly later scrapped. Any takers?
     
  18. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I should have said that a) I've only shown the least represented companies and b) the figures are debatable and rushed - but intended only for relative comparison, and a few locos either way doesn't change the ranking.
     
  19. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    The pre grouping GWR would be the worst represented major company if it wasn't for the half a dozen identical 2800s rescued (but not necessarily restored) from Barry.

    EDIT. I forgot the broad gauge locos, so all's well after all!
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  20. Mencken

    Mencken New Member

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    The L&NWR and the L&YR amalgamated on 1st January 1922, under the title London & North Western Railway. Adding the locomotives of each (as in the list above) would give a total for the new company of 4986.

    But maybe these figures relate to the date of the amalgamation, because the actual total of locomotives at 31st December 1922 was 5123.
     
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