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North Staffordshire 0-6-2T

Discussion in 'National Railway Museum' started by Tim Light, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    From what a previous poster was saying, the cost to the NRM of loaning an item is low. However, the cost of recovering it and remediating any damage can be very high.

    So I don't really buy the "Management Cost" argument. What can it possibly cost to have a vehicle out on loan? Especially if the receiving organisation is committing its own resources to the conservation of the item?
     
  2. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    OK so not my last post was not my final say but this IS my final say. You are not convinced of the costs for management - well from what I've seen from the NRN they go about things in a professional way, but lets look at how I would charge for such a thing.

    Lets just assume the loco stays just as it is stuffed and mounted and on display, what's reasonable let's assume one visit a year just to check they are keeping to the terms of any agreement. I have no idea what the daily rates are for NRM operatives but my company used to charge me out @ £475/day + expences. So by the time you've done all that and written a report on return to the office your easily talking the neck end £700-£900 now lets assume you have 20-30 vehicles up and down the country it soon starts to mount up. Then you add any additional inspections when a loco is overhauled and the costs go up again and that could easily amount to the cost of one member of staff. Now do you see - if you don't go and ask someone else I'm tired of this . . . . .
     
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  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    On that basis they may as well give everything away. Form an orderly queue please.
     
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  4. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

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    It also misses the point that there already are a huge number of NRM items out on loan at many different railways.
     
  5. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    So the question is, is it worth £1K a year of public money to keep a unique pre-grouping 0-6-2T in the National Collection? I think so.
     
  6. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    It is perfectly proper for a magazine to look at this story and ask pertinent questions - that is good journalism. What is disappointing is that the article leans towards the dramatic.

    If the loco is returned to steam one day a visit to CVR metals would surely be high on the priority list.

    Jon
     
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  7. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    If it had then there would be zero chance of it ever steaming again, personally I would rather see it working at Foxfield
     
  8. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    So you are saying that if it had been loaned rather than given away, it would never have been steamed? There are a lot of NRM locos out there working that might disprove that theory.
     
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  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I suggest that Johnb was saying that whilst in the care of the NRM NSR2 would be competing for restoration with many other items hence would be well down the queue for attention whilst its move to Foxfield will allow its priority to be upgraded and see a quicker return to service by those more interested in that specific item. I also interpret his posting as suggesting that that situation would apply whether the transfer was by way of loan or gift. The essential point is that NSR2 has "come home" to its spiritual environment with the happy co-incidence of combining both the NSR and colliery elements of its life story.
     
  10. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    No problem with that or with it going to Foxfield, a great railway with an excellent record of restoration and running.
     
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  11. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Looking at it more generally, there have been locos loaned out previously which have moved up in priority when someone has come up with a viable plan and the funding. What's the difference here?
     
  12. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    A little point. In its current condition NSR No.2 (or is it 72?) is not representative of a pre-grouping 0-6-2T, what it is representative of is an ex mainline locomotive that has been extensively modified to suit a colliery railway environment. To return it to pre-grouping condition would entail a major rebuild including a brand new boiler and extensive de-modifications to other elements of the locomotive. To return it to steam as it stands will be a much less involved process although it will be costly due to the previous owners getting every penny out of their asset meaning it is looking at an extensive major overhaul including new tyres on all driving wheels. Hopefully everyone who has expressed support for Foxfield's intentions to return No2 to steam will be happy to assist when the appeal for funds goes out in the not too distant future...

    When restored it is unlikely the loco will find regular work at Foxfield due to its size and suitability and it is more likely it will act as a roving ambassador for North Staffordshire on visits around the country and yes, the Churnet Valley will echo to the sounds of a (modified) New L tank again.
     
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  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    One could argue that that history enhances rather than reduces the value of the locomotive to the National Collection - ex-mainline locos sold off to industrial concerns (and possibly then subsequently re-boilered and having other modifications) was an important part of railway history, but not well represented in the National Collection. So as part of the National Collection, the loco was representative of both a specific pre-grouping company, but could also tell the story of how old locomotives often lived on for a second career in industry once their mainline careers had finished. What other loco in the National Collection could tell that story?

    I'm with @The Saggin' Dragon here: I have no objection to the locomotive going to Foxfield as a loan (either for display or to be put back into steam), but I can't see what advantage there was in transferring ownership.

    Tom
     
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  14. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Same as me which was my point earlier in the thread. I fail to see any benefit that an ownership transfer offers over a loan.
     
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  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    this is a loco that has hardly had a real part in the national collection at any point with spells away from York previously . It doesn't feature in any known plan for a return to steam . What should we have , does it languish at York or Shildon or does someone have the courage to allow it a better future.

    The article was largely distilled from content in this forum but presented as first hand journalism. I pointed this out to the editor of Steam Railway who has remained largely silent in response. You may also note that a very respected member of this site has been rather noticeable by their absense since the article was published . I'm sure that this is a side effect of how the article was written and probably a few interesting please explain conversations .

    A cheap headline in a magazine has I suspect resulted in a loss to the forum
     
  16. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    I thought it might be useful to quote Anthony Coulls' explanation on disposals from the collection he gave in a previous thread elsewhere within this forum on this very subject.

    "Our criteria for disposal are - poor condition/duplication/unsuitable for collection/more suitable for another museum
    If an item is considered for disposal, I then make up a case which I present to our internal Board of Survey, where it is peer reviewed by colleagues from the NRM and across the Science Museum Group, and searching questions are asked.
    The Board may then recommend disposal or they may refuse it - I have had both
    If it is approved, then the case goes to the Science Museum Collections & Research Group for ratification or otherwise
    It then gets taken to the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board who may make comments or recommendations
    Then it goes to Science Museum Group Trustees for their approval and sign off

    If Trustees sign it off, we can then offer it to a suitable recipient, who may or may not have already be identified.
    Items for whom there is not a readily identifiable recipient go here, where the process is outlined again:

    http://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/object-disposal/

    I hope that makes sense and explains that it is not being done on a whim. There has been a big review of signalling collections in recent times and there will be more. It's all about sustainable and responsible management of the collection."
     
  17. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Why does it need to be in steam? If the aforementioned journalist had done some proper research, he would be aware CVR and FR people are in fairy regular contact and the insinuation of disapproval & conflict amongst members from both railways is practically non-existent. As I've messaged Steam Railway, that article was something more akin to The S** than a magazine supporting the hobby it's meant to represent. Hopefully it's not caused too much damage to plans in the pipeline to help celebrate both CVR25 and Foxfield50 in 2017.
     
  18. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    It certainly hasn't, Foxfield are well aware of the intentions of the article, which was aimed squarely at the NRM, and how it was put together, and I know discussions are ongoing regarding the celebrations of both railways and how we can work together as we have succesfully done in the past and will continue to do so.
     
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  19. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    Showing my ignorance but was the loco made part of the national collection on preservation or when the Shugborough collection was dispersed in 1984?

    Jon
     
  20. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Once again, am Quite happy for it to go to Foxfield; just don't see why it had to be given to them when loans have sufficed for all other locos that the National Collection has transferred elsewhere.

    Speculation. Having spoken to the journalist concerned I don't believe this to be the case.
    Don't think that I would be sticking my head above the parapet either had an organisation that I worked for been involved in such a dubious action with public property either.
     

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