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BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Bulleid Pacific, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Easy tiger! I was simply pointing out that if you are building a replica of a loco designed for the Southern Region, surely you would want to use whatever design of smoke deflectors they would have had as built, i.e. with normal handrails?

    Ditto lamp irons - the thought occurred that as locos for BR(S), they should have had six lamp irons, but I wondered if, in the original batch, design considerations had got far enough advanced to consider such issues - nothing more than that. Evidently the ostensibly similar Britannias were modified with extra lamp irons when they ran on the Southern - something I'd never really thought about before until looking for photos.

    Tom
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Apparently, there was a spate of Britannias working on the Southern being stopped by signals as the headlamps were out. The way I heard, it was found that the air flow around the front running plate was working back and blowing out the lamps, hence the extended lamp irons. I assume the shape of Southern headlamps also played a part; it was not done on the other regions.

    The handrails were indeed removed from from the smoke deflectors of nearly all Britannias following the Milton accident, the Western peppering them with small, rectangular cut-outs. Being the Western, these were framed with brass. The LMR provided two on the pattern of the Stanier pacifics. But as already noted, the Clans and 9Fs, with noticeably narrower boilers and smokeboxes, were never modified.
     
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  3. 46203

    46203 Member

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    16 members of the class of 55 were never altered, retaining the original handrails until withdrawal. Strange that they were all maintained at Crewe Works - must be an answer there somewhere.
     
  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I didn't realise it was as many as that! Thanks.
     
  5. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Thread swervery here, but an excellent place to read all about each individual Britannia class loco and it's life, including all of the modifications on each is Derek Dean's very comprehensive pages on David Heys wonderful web-site:

    http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page90.htm

    Hours of fun to be had there.

    Cheers,

    Alan
     
  6. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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  7. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    Just seen the latest update on the project web site https://www.theclanproject.org. Whilst it is not a major step forward it surely will encourage folk to see the progress made above the frames so far. Remember that it is a bare cab on display but they have all the internals to go with it. It will be touring around for display and publicity. Well done the team.
     
  8. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

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  9. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    I see the chimney is secured to the front of the trailer. Will it be fitted in place when the 'box' is on display? I seem to remember the front apron being fitted up as some stage, will that be tucked under the 'box' as well?

    We can but wait and see, but there seems little point spending money on erecting small sections when the money is needed to put the frames together.
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    The Chimney is now on.

    There would seem to be a concerted effort to raise the profile of the Clan Project, adverts in mags etc and now putting together some of the bits that they have.
    Its a catch 22 without money the assembly doesn t progress, without progress the Project doesn't appear very 'alive' and without a live Profile doesn t attract interest/donations

    82045 Patriot and Tornado have demonstrated the worth of having Tangible displays and since all the components were there anyway and needed a new lick of paint to protect them from the elements...
    It would be nice to put the smoke deflectors on, and the fall plate and bufferbeam, or in fact the whole cab ( as most of that is already made). but its probably wise to stick to the bits that wont suffer too much from being handled and moved around ?
     
  11. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    To say that the Clans were underboilered is nonsense. The boiler size complements the chassis design. Any attempt by the Clan people to give 72010 more power will end in tears. It will leave the loco wide open to the Britannia curse of wheels moving on axles, something that did not happen to any of the Clans in BR days.
     
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  12. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Is a "Clan" merely a "Britannia" with a smaller boiler? (I'm not being facetious, it is a genuine question.) Given the progress made on "Hengist" thus far, I've no doubt that it will succeed. Like I said, some men of a certain age with a disposable income want one and they'll have it sooner or later. It doesn't have to be YOUR money.[/QUOTE]

    Yes a Clan was more or less a small boilered Britannia, the chassis was the same but the cylinders were half an inch smaller in diameter but with the same stroke and the boiler was pressed at 225psi rather than 250psi.
    In traffic they were really no better than a class 5, originally destined for the difficult Perth - Inverness road the ups were instead sent to Polmadie and Kingmoor. I can only think that there were worries over their adhesive properties as the total weight over the drivers was less tan either a class 5 or Jubilee.
    Even E S Cox admitted that with hindsight they should never have been built.
     
  13. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Yes a Clan was more or less a small boilered Britannia, the chassis was the same but the cylinders were half an inch smaller in diameter but with the same stroke and the boiler was pressed at 225psi rather than 250psi.
    In traffic they were really no better than a class 5, originally destined for the difficult Perth - Inverness road the ups were instead sent to Polmadie and Kingmoor. I can only think that there were worries over their adhesive properties as the total weight over the drivers was less tan either a class 5 or Jubilee.
    Even E S Cox admitted that with hindsight they should never have been built.[/QUOTE]


    There is a very important difference in the Britannia and Clan chassis. This concerns the centre drivers and axleboxes. On a Britannia all diameters on the axles of the centre drivers were 1" bigger than the axles fitted to the Clans. Consequently, the roller axleboxes and width between the horn faces were bigger than those on the Clans.
     
  14. Smokestack Lightning

    Smokestack Lightning Member

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    Does anyone know if the Clan group are planning to use keyways on the axles?

    Dave
     
  15. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As for the Clans: surely the basic idea was a loco with a wide firebox suitable for poor quality coal but with a low axle loading, able to go where Britannias couldn't. The amount of engineering expertise going into Hengist should ensure both that it will be somewhat more powerful than the originals and that all its parts will be strong enough for that amount of power.
     
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  16. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    There is a lot less wrong with the Clans as a Loco than there was with 71000. there is no reason to believe that a further Tweak ( beyond the BR one) will not give a highly respectable and sustainable steam output for the size of grate.
    Yes a Clan is in effect a Britannia with a smaller boiler. The tractive effort figure is not impressive, but the adhesion factor, as a result, is - for a Pacific at any rate
    The one that really hacks me off is the ' no better than a class 5' which is said often with no understanding of the context the original quote was given.
    On paper a Clan is only a little better than a class 5 ie a class 5+ Pacific, but significantly class 5s couldn't keep time on the main turns that Clans were rostered for.

    One other un-answered questions from above which I can have a stab at; Unless the VAB or one of the other knowledgeable parties that the Clan Project people talk to recommends otherwise the wheels will be pressed onto the axles, with keys as per the Brits and 71000.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
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  17. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    I see we have more progress on the frames engineering work. Excellent! (www.theclanproject.org).
    It amazes me that some folk think this engine will just be built with all the 'faults' of the original ones. This is a re-engineered locomotive with improvements made as applicable and with all modern engineering techniques employed to best advantage neither is it a recycled collection of parts. These are both reasons why it takes time to collect the parts and do the work. Happy Christmas everyone.
     
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  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    If you've [and by "you've" I'm not referring to any individual but generally railway enthusiasts] ever read books by OS Nock and Cecil J. Allen which cover some aspects of British Pacific design, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Clans were utterly hopeless and totally without merit.

    I suggest part of the problem is the perception - by the timekeepers and railway authors anyway - that the Clan was supposed to be much superior to a 5MT and potentially much more than its 6MT classification would suggest. Like many locomotives dismissed out of hand, there's a lot of anecdotal and apocryphal evidence which has painted them in a particularly bad light. One wonders how poor the class actually were in service.
     
  19. detheridge02

    detheridge02 New Member

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    A lot of the reports about the Clans were from crews of Brits who were used to Brit duties. The locos may have looked very similar but with the smaller grate and lighter axle loading Clans could not be driven like a Brit nor could they take the Class 7 loads that were sometimes bestowed upon them. BR themselves were impressed enough to have ordered a second batch that were destined for the Southern Region. Sadly the steel shortage and modernisation plan prevented that order from being completed.

    Back to Hengist, progress this year has been rapid. Not only are we one component order away from having all components necessary for the frame assembly, including motion brackets and slide bar brackets, but EVERY component has been tested to mainline standards. Where manufacturing has diverged from the original drawings or specs our VAB has been involved every step of the way. Our VAB has also been involved with the potential modifications suggested by the Advanced Steam Traction Trust and planning is already underway for the Wheels, Boiler and Tender.

    We are currently talking to several companies about manufacturing the boiler and we are hopeful that it will be built in the UK. Our VAB is involved in the design process to iron out some of the issues found in the original Clan boilers. Regarding the tender, the key here is to maximise water capacity rather than coal capacity. To this end we will be using a modified BR1B tender without the water scoop gear.

    Anyone can get involved with the Clan Project, membership starts at just £15 per year and ANY size donation, either regular or one off, is gratefully received. We are determined to have the frames assembled in 2016, 50 years after the scrapping of the last Clan. To do this we need your help. We are talking to several companies regarding sponsorship, if you work for, or know, of any companies that might be interested please get in touch.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you all.
    From everyone at THE CLAN PROJECT
     
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  20. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    They also ordered 20 Metrovick Diesels, 50+ Paxman Class 14s, plus other turkeys, a raft of DMUs that barely lasted 10 years, so BR being impressed is not really a ringing endorsement in isolation.
     
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