6233 in LMS red and wider livery debate of locomotives/stock

Hi John- it was the tender engine, so therefore accurate.

My latter question was more about when is it okay to repaint locomotives in inauthentic liveries - is it okay to do so for television purposes because the livery is historically accurate...?

I'm interested to see views on this as my personal take is that if the livery is authentic for the period, but the locomotive is not, and efforts have been made to make a reasonable depiction, then that's okay - but only where TV purposes are concerned. On the mainline - should be accurate.

The difference between a depiction for a show and a restoration for the mainline, if that makes sense.

 

Surely anyone who seriously takes anything that happens in preservation as representing history is at best naive?

To offer a devils advocate view, one could also make the case that, say, painting a BR standard in LNER livery is effectively benign, since very few could possibly mistake it it for a representation of history. By contrast if you run an LMS pacific as close to 1947 condition as you can, claiming authenticity, but have details such as steam heating pipes on the front buffer beam, haven't you then created an image that presents a very real possibility of confusion for an unknown posterity?

 

Surely it is only a distortion or misleading if you claim it to be accurate or historical?
I don't actually think most people in preservation are doing historical reenactment, I think they are doing preservation - i.e. keeping things from being lost - and having fun doing it. So long as you don't claim something novel is an accurate representation of something historical, what's the problem?
I don't think it matters in the slightest if a few people go home thinking a loco was historically blue with smoke deflectors when it was only blue without (or whatever) - most of them won't think about it at all, and most people think "steam trains" have faces anyway.....

 

Has any railway actually put up notices saying that they aren't historically accurate?

 

Speak for yourself. Personally, I get far more excited when preserved railways and rolling stock owners try to recreate the pre-grouping era - which nobody remembers anymore!

Seriously though, as a history graduate and conservationist I believe that authenticity is a noble aim, but not only is it not always possible to achieve it, it is sometimes not even desirable.

I well remember the old "Pembroke Reports" in steam railway, in which an undercover reporter analysed our steam railways from the perspective of an ordinary visitor, rather than an enthusiast. I remember his verdict on one railway, whose blushes I will spare. I don't have the exact words to hand, but it was something to the effect of: "the coaches were dirty, the catering dismal, and the less said about the toilets, the better. In short, it was a perfect recreation of British Railways in the 1960s!"

Like it or not, commercial realities mean that our preserved railways have to be viable as visitor attractions. Giving visitors a pleasant experience will always mean that we have to present a slightly rose-tinted view of the past. That, alone, means that we can never present the public with a totally authentic recreation - never mind the need to build workshops, education centres, museums, gift shops, etc.

Even in the museum world, where curators are expected to be rigorous in upholding authenticity, there is sometimes room for compromise. For example, Mallard is currently presented by the NRM in her 1938 condition...except for one small detail. Gold star for anybody who can tell me what it is!

Some people are arguing that inauthentic liveries are misleading, but personally, I question the extent to which that is really the case. After all, railway enthusiasts are always meticulous in recording such changes. As long as you are honest with people about what you've done, then personally I don't think that it really matters too much.

 

Shouldn't she have a corridor tender?

 

Good try, but no. She didn't get a corridor tender until March 1948.

 

Interesting - likewise I don't understand the subtleties of LMS reds, so therefore I'm interested to find out - or at the very least I'd like to think that the custodians of such locos were taking reasonable steps to present them in historically-accurate ways, within the realms of compromises (such as braking systems etc) necessary for modern conditions.

Tom

 

Am I correct in thinking the small detail is in fact 2 not-very-small, round and bleeding obvious details that nearly everyone who is photographing a close up bit of Mallard photographs (also fitted to 60007 and 91110 IIRC as well)

John

 

Yes, you are correct. I knew someone would get it!

(And let's not forget, 4464 now has similar plaques too...!)

 

The bygone age I was referring to was the steam age, the Coal Tank looks the business in LNWR livery and the SE&C livery seen on the Bluebell are great.

I must disagree on the fact that it doesn't matter though, as I've said earlier museums have an educational function in presenting that bygone age. To give an example I called into the GC a few years ago with the next train, the diner service just leaving Loughborough, consisting of a mixed bag of red, green and Pullman liveried Mk1s hauled by a red 8F carrying the Elizabethan headboard. How much better would it have been to have a smart set of maroon Mk 1s and naming the train the Master Cutler with the publicity leaflet explaining the significance of that name to the line, even better with an A3 or V2 on the front but you can't have everything.

The origin of this thread was the livery of 6233 and my own view remains that the ultimate decision is for the owning group who I am pleased to say will not countenance anything that is not authentic as a photographer I can deal with any small bits that shouldn't be there.

The picture below has been modified, no prizes but everything looks pretty much 1950s to me.

 

Erm, you're still missing the point. Has anyone put up signs saying they ARE?
Verisimilitude, yes. "Acccuracy", no.

 

Light blue* touchpaper and stand well back.....

*Insert maroon, green or wartime black if preferred

Dave

 

I don't think so. Firstly, there is an unspoken assertion that this is the case, "Step back in time," is a selling point of most lines to Mr and Mrs Joe Public, who come away with the impression that this is how it was. And I know it isn't 100% accurate: standards of cleanliness of the locos, etc. far exceeds even 1930s standards, but that's a necessity if visitors are to come at all.

Many railways (not all), and certainly many loco owners, are registered charities, and as far as the Charities Commission is concerned, part of the granting of this status is the 'educational value' of what they own and present. How does a false livery fit into that definition? At least, locos in BR service were clean some of the time.

 

I'm sure LMS2968 will agree that the SVR--at least at Bewdley, Arley, and Hampton Loade--has an overall "period ambience" from an earlier time, even when there is no actual train present. For me that ambience is at its best when the train has period coaching stock, something the SVR is well equipped with, and a small to medium sized engine. It tends to be less so when a Bulleid pacific on a long train arrives! However, in the SVR's defence they do have a "people-moving" function to perform which does require the more popular services to be of adequate length and motive power. Short trains look good, but don't necessarily bring in sufficient revenue.

I suspect the Bluebell also does well for that "period feel".

46118

 

Actually, er, no. I'm not an expert on LNER locos so I can't comment specifically. But generally speaking engines have been preserved in the conditino in which they finished BR service. There are usually a multitude of detail differences acquired over a lifetime, which I'm sure someone can elaborate on, so reducing this to "only one" is naive, arrogant and unhelpful. I understand the tender is not the one she had in 1938 and the skirting is presumably manufactured in preservation as well. I'm certain there are more.

It's a bit like railway modelling. If you're a beginner you think your model railway looks great because you don't know any better. It's only until you read the books and learn the differences that little errors become glaringly obvious and embarrassing that you ever though that looked OK. Your grandkids meanwhile can't tell the difference and still think their grandad's layout is great.

I do however personally support efforts to get things looking right broadly-speaking, which starts with painting it the right colour.

 

Not sure about the metal loc case - when did they come in? And that brickwork to the right looks a bit modern to me - metric bricks?

(I could be wrong on both counts, but someone had to...!)

 

35005 was done for a good reason too - to use up some blue paint left over from 60007.

 

Putting a plaque on loco stating "apologies, currently sporting inauthentic livery, not sure why" would suffice..?

 

Agreed the brickwork looks new but they had bricklayers in the 50s, the case is correct vintage it's not metal but beige material. The loco that's been changed in one very small detail.