If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Gradient profiles of Heritage Railways - List in Post 1

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    On another thread, someone suggested that the Strathspey Railway could potentially be extended through to Forres, following the route of the Highland Railway original mail line.
    If this went ahead, it would involve a twisting slog of about 17 miles from Forres (not much above sea level) to Dava Summit (1052 feet/320 metres, or 19 feet/6 metres higher than Beattock!)
    Good Luck with the extension to Grantown-on-Spey!
     
  2. Hurricane

    Hurricane Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    71A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Someone is obviously listening/observing......
    http://preservation.watercressline.co.uk/about/view/gradient-profile
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  3. baldbazza

    baldbazza New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT geek
    Location:
    miles away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  4. Robkitchuk

    Robkitchuk Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    358
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Durham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Bowes hosts two inclines to East or Flatt bank, 1170 yards long at 1 in 70. And the short or West Bank at 750 yards at 1 in 13. The east bank is both rope hauled and locomotive worked. Blackhams hill stands at the top of both inclines at 500 feet above sea level.
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,064
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good to see. All that's needed now is a better quality upload that's easier to read or is it my software? :)
     
  6. Footbridge

    Footbridge Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2013
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    634
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Darlington
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    On http://www.bikehike.co.uk/mapview.php you can plot any route you like and it can give you the profile. It takes a bit of getting used to but I find it great when planning cycle trips to help my dodgy knee.
     
  7. City of truro fan

    City of truro fan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    84
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Honiton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You have all missed that the steepest railway is the Fawley line garden railway thats so steep they can only pull 2 wagons on it!
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  8. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  9. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Railway Technician
    Location:
    8C / 5D / 27C / 71B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    CVR profile now added.

    https://www.churnet-valley-railway.co.uk/line-guide
     
  10. Jack Enright

    Jack Enright New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    188
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Buxton, Derbyshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    This is a gradient profile of the Kent & East Sussex Railway:

    www.kesr-mic.org.uk/resources/Gradient+Profile.pdf

    Having worked over the line as a fireman in the 80s and 90s, I noticed one bit which doesn't match my own memories; the profile shows the line through Wittersham Road Station as level. Certainly, when I worked on it, part of the platform road was level, but as Northiam-bound trains approached the signal box, the gradient changed quite abruptly to a steep climb, which continued over the crossing and up the bank. I was told by one of the older members at the time that the plans for the original Railway called for a cutting to be dug through the ridge immediately west of Wittersham Road - but the fledgling company couldn't raise the capital to pay for the necessary earthworks, so the line simply went up and over! Mind you, in fairness to Colonel Stephens, considering how little capital he had to work with, it was quite a feat that he managed to get the line built and opened at all.

    Going towards Rolvenden over that bank was a ticklish business in the summer, as the field adjoining the line to the south-east was usually sown with rape; in hot weather, you could see a haze of (very inflammable!) rape seed oil hanging over the field, yet the engine had to be worked hard to get five Mk.Is and a van up the 1 in 80 gradient. It would have been all too easy to chuck a burning coal out of the chimney - even with the fire-hole doors open - and see the whole field go up in flames!

    Another point about which I have my doubts is the approach to Cranbrook Road Crossing, heading towards Tenterden. That stretch is shown as 1 in 50, but I'm certain that the straight approaching the crossing is much steeper than other parts between Rolvenden and Tenterden. I remember talking to an old member soon after I started working on the line in the early 80s. He'd been involved in opening the first stretch, from Tenterden to Rolvenden, and told me that his gang had checked the gradient approaching Cranbrook Road, and found it to be about 1 in 37! Certainly, when the gates were worked by the guard, so you had to stop east of the crossing, then do a standing start, it seemed by far the steepest stretch of the line - and was very tricky, even when the crossing gates were manned, on winter afternoons when the dew started forming on the railhead. If your engine was going to pick her wheels up anywhere, it would be on that stretch of line.

    I wonder would one of those hand-held GPS thingies be able to give you a more accurate profile, if you were riding on a train?
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  11. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I have seen 1in37 quoted elsewhere, but not in any official survey. I have also seen three slightly different profiles for the KESR, one of which was based I believe on a survey carried out by BR when they took over on nationalisation.

    I can understand that there will be some variation up the bank, the line is sometimes quoted as "between 1in50 and 1in52" between Rolvenden and Tenterden. Gradients will have changed slightly over the years due to relaying and reballasting of course, but I thought the steepest bit was in the wet cutting. Looking down the line from Cranbrook Rd, the depth of ballast is substantial and it appears that stretch has been lifted quite a lot.

    One of the profiles I've seen shows 1in70 from the middle of Wittersham Rd platform to the top of the bank there, but 1in75 on the other side. Based on trains needing to apply steam to enter WM platform from the ground frame suggests a rise starting there.
     
  12. Jack Enright

    Jack Enright New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    188
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Buxton, Derbyshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm sure the profile will have changed quite a bit. I remember second manning on works trains when the P-way gang totally demolished the original embankment (ash and clinker, and always being undermined by rabbits) and replaced it altogether with an embankment of mine waste retained by layer after layer of plastic-covered steel mesh. From the difference in the feel of rounding that curve, before and afterwards, I'm sure they took the opportunity to iron out quite a lot of wobbles, both in gradient and curvature.

    The profile you describe matches my memories of firing out of Witt Road platform, with the load on the engine rapidly increasing as each coach in turn hit the gradient half way along the platform (and the original very sharp turn out from the platform road onto the main line didn't help, either!) - but it must be 15 or 16 years since I fired on the KESR, so much may have changed since then.

    With best regards,

    Jack
     
  13. martinr1

    martinr1 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    16
    Here is the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway for you
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,102
    Likes Received:
    57,421
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  15. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    I don't know but I have my doubts. A few years ago i gave a friend a lift in my classic car and he got his GPS out to see how accurate the speedo was (it reads a little high, but that's what we thought). What surprised me though was that the GPS also thought we were many feet below sea level! OK we were in Norfolk but even so...
     
  16. Jack Enright

    Jack Enright New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    188
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Buxton, Derbyshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Actually, that could have been the case. A relation of mine used to work at a massive sewage treatment plant near Basildon, in Essex. He told me that the treated sludge from the sewage works was being spread over a huge tract of farmland along the Thames Estuary, and would eventually end up yards deep. He said the purpose of putting it there was to bring the ground level slightly above sea level - instead of being well below it, which it had been ever since the old sea marshes had been drained!

    As you drain off land like that, it dries out and shrinks. As it was barely above sea level to start with, it ends up well below. There are stretches of land like that, which are below sea level, on Romney Marsh, and in the North Somerset levels. I read an account of the disastrous floods which hit the coast of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex in the early 1950s, and I'm pretty sure part of the reason why the damage was so severe was that, in many places, once the sea walls were breached the sea could spread for miles inland, at high speed, because the land behind the sea walls was below sea level.

    With best regards,

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
    pmh_74 likes this.
  17. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    1,747
    Location:
    Stourbridge
    I have no faith at all in the GPS height function on my :Android: tablet. The other day it reckoned part of the Severn Valley Railway was below sea level. :eek:
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,102
    Likes Received:
    57,421
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You need to update your software - sounds like you have the 2007 version ;)

    Seriously, my understanding is that the altitude error on a GPS is greater than the horizontal position error, which is a matter of geometry of the satellites amongst other causes. A vertical error of 20 or 30 metres is not beyond the bounds of possibility. The other point is that horizontally you get errors as well, but if the GPS gives you a 10m horizontal error, most people would not notice as they have no suitable frame of reference with which to compare. Whereas if you are standing on the beach with a 10 meter vertical error, it is immediately apparent.

    Tom
     
    pmh_74, andrewshimmin, Robin and 2 others like this.
  19. Jack Enright

    Jack Enright New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    188
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Buxton, Derbyshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Um - so 17 miles at an average gradient of about 1 in 90, and plenty of reverse curves? Well, that should sort out the firemen from the cleaners!
    :Dead:

    Jack
     
  20. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    When I first came across this I thought it would be awesome on a heritage railway, and since my earlier post I thought I'd look into it in a bit more detail. The line is now built over at Forres, and according to Wikipedia the climb starts near Rafford, which is about 150 feet above sea level.
    According to O.S.Nock - "The Railway Enthusiasts Encylopedia"-"Southbound from Forres for 15 miles; mostly at 1 in 75; reaching an altitude of 1052 ft on Dava Moor. There is a brief respite for 1.25 miles at Dunphail, but otherwise climbing very severe. Subject to high winds; and the exposed stretches over the moorlands south of Dunphail are notorious for snowdrifts"

    From the south the line climbs 300 feet from Grantown over the course of about six miles, up to Dava summit.

    Even though the route was the original main line of the Highland Railway, I doubt it carried much heavy traffic in the past.
     

Share This Page