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Royal Duchy 2015

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Hemerdon, Jun 12, 2015.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    What, New York to Chicago via Buffalo? :D
     
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  2. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    David
    The WSSE'S on the 15/8 and 29/8 are no longer listed on the RTC website.


    Paul
     
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    As guycarr has pointed out, a diesel shadowed 60007 to Edinburgh and back a few weeks ago. More than a day trip but not a marathon like the GB so it seems where there's a will theres a way.
     
  4. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    But at what point would the extra costs be your breaking point out of interest? £20? £30? £50 maybe. Yes it has happened before but it's more the exception than the norm, if it became the norm then the increased costs (and they aren't as small as some people seem to think - I remember Ben at VT saying exactly that), would be passed on that is for certain so I wondered what point you would say enough is enough? Same question for everyone else too btw.
     
  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would judge each tour on a case by case basis and would depend on loco and route. Casting aside the diesel debate for a moment, I'd willingly pay more for a Scot over Shap than a Scot across the Fens or a K4 over Rannoch than a K4 to Brighton. That said, £20 to avoid being shoved by a box would be a no brainer in my book. There is also the question as to which would increase ticket prices more, having a diesel shadow or make the trains shorter?
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But the $65,000question is whether an extra £11 per passenger would cover it.

    If you take a typical charter of say 400 passengers. Knock off two TSOs to bring the weight limit down to what is acceptable on the gradients and you lose potentially 128 seats - say £10,000 revenue @£79 per seat. Spread that £10k over the remaining 270 passengers on the train and you are looking at closer to £40 extra per head to cover the lost revenue.

    Tom
     
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  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The above assumes that the cost of seven coaches is the same as nine.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Where do you propose any savings come from? The loco cost is the same (that's a given seeing as this thought-experiement is about reducing loads to allow a given engine to cover the duty). The track access charges will be the same. Crew costs will be the same. The fixed overheads of the company in marketing, office expenses etc will be the same. All you save is the hire charge on a couple of coaches, which is likely pretty negligible in the total cost of putting train on the rails.

    Tom
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    You've answered your own question.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    So you think not hiring two coaches will save £10,000? For that maths to work, you have said that the hire charge per coach is exactly equivalent to the revenue that the coach generates - in which case, where is the money coming from to pay for all the other expenses?

    Tom
     
  11. royce6229

    royce6229 Well-Known Member

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    Off course as the welsh mountaineer ran with only 6 coaches, were they running it knowing they were going to lose money? I doubt it.
     
  12. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Fair enough, each to their own. Regardless, I consider myself chastened and I apologise.
     
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  13. Bifur01

    Bifur01 Member

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  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Sorry if I sounded off about it.
     
  15. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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  16. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Surely if that was the case then we wouldn't be in this situation as there would be no need for the extra coaches as they don't actually generate any revenue.
     
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Exactly my point ...

    The problem with short trains is that there are negligible savings to be made running them relative to a long train, but a significant reduction in revenue. Hence my feeling that those who want "all steam" are going to have to recalibrate their expectations of what they consider a viable combination of route, loco, load and price.

    One issue is that often the "hilly" section of an itinerary may only be a small part of the total, but it is the steepest gradient that needs to be used when settting the load, even if that is only one mile out of several hundred. No problem putting 11 or so behind a West Country on a reasonably flat road. Which is why I wonder if there is mileage (no pun intended) in considering more creative itineraries, in which the loco + large train does the bulk of the journey, and those that want the "adventurous" bit do it on a smaller train for a supplemental fare.

    For example, Exeter - Plymouth is a bit over an hour each way, plus say two for loco servicing. So you could have a morning trip of, say, three hours to Exeter from some starting point with West Country + 11 coaches + diesel for shunting purposes. Knock off four or five coaches and their passengers and the diesel for those who want to spend four or five hours looking round Exeter, then for a premium take the remaining six or seven coaches unassisted over the Devon banks, for a supplement to the main fare. That way those who want pure steam get it, at least on the significantly challenging part of the route, whereas the whole train is large enough to be financially viable, since the supplement for the bit on the banks would only need to be the marginal cost of the trip to Plymouth and back. Similar ideas might work elsewhere.

    Tom
     
  18. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    Nah, don't worry about it. In retrospect, I was in a bit of a combative mood when I wrote the offending post, so its good that you picked me up on it.
     
  19. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    On the other hand, each time I consider that being shoved around by a diesel is not what I want the tour company loses income of about £400.
     
  20. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Yes you could say that but the reality is that although they have lost your money that doesn't mean that everybody thinks like that and I would imagine a casual day tripper would be less bothered and there are plenty of them who will still pay, then there is the other choice that has to be made - diesel and a railtour or no diesel no mainline steam. If it gets to that stage what would your stance be then? I would take the diesel. My dad was on this trip with my sister (unfortunately I couldn't make it myself due to other commitments so satisfied my needs with a quick lunchtime bash on the Shakespeare Express). My dad likes railways but is not a hardcore enthusiast, my sister would fall into the day tripper category, I asked them if they would of minded a diesel on the back if it had been known it was needed. Both said they wouldn't of minded at all if that was what was needed then so be it.

    Going back to an earlier comment that assumed all the passengers would be angry with the situation, I also asked them if they were annoyed at what had happened. They both said that while they were disappointed, they were pleased with the way that RTC handled it and kept them informed and got them back to Bristol even if it wasn't the way originally intended. The interesting point here was my non enthusiast sister actually commented that if she was running the tour she would of had the diesel with them on the back to avoid the situation from happening even if it turned out it wasn't needed she would of preferred the security when using "antique trains"(her words btw not mine).

    IMO goes to show that although there are those that like yourself wouldn't travel there are plenty that still will travel regardless if there is a box on the back or not. The big question though (and no one really knows the answer to this for sure although I do have my suspicions), which would be the majority. If its the no box brigade then we could be in trouble going forwards.
     
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