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West Somerset Railway Operations

Discussion in 'Heritage railways & Centres in the Uk' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Just on a point of clarification. Because the appeal is being run by the charity if somebody specifically says "this donation is for loco X" then it must be put into a restricted fund for that purpose. The one at a time idea was also debated but the conclusion was that people need to know that we need to restore more than one locomotive to build up the "home fleet".
    If you think about it the appeal needs to run in perpetuity as it's unlikely that any Loco will be guaranteed to earn it's full 10 year overhaul cost from revenues generated.
    The appeal structure is now agreed with the plc and you can read the heads of terms in Beckfords post which I believe also answers some earlier questions.
    Until full engineering surveys of 4110 and the manor are undertaken then they remain largely unknown quantities in terms of the cost and timescale for restoration. As most will understand the best way to undertake the surveys will be by stripping the locos down to expose all the work needed.
    I am sure there will be some lively debate at the Association AGM as well.
    But as Jeff has said and I think I mentioned in an earlier post more volunteers, particularly those with relevant skills would help a lot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 4:13 PM
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  2. Jeff Price

    Jeff Price Active Member

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    So does this mean a stall can be opened on Minehead station under the Banner WSR Joint locomotive Restoration fund - 4110 project, (other locomotives are available to fund)
    talk people into parting with say £ 100 for 4110,
    get them to sign a gift aid declaration,
    give the cash and form to the WSRA
    WSRA can claim £ 20 from the tax man
    WSRA have to give £ 120 to WSRplc which must be spent on 4110

    Sounds easy

    Hopefully will all be in place for FS visit

    Jeff
     
  3. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Jeff setting up a stall for any purpose on MD station will require the permission of the plc as I'm sure you understand. Fundraising for the charity will require the permission of the trustees. But the reason the charity are running the fund-raising for the railway is as you have described. You may be surprised to know that the potential to fundraise both in the lead-up to and during the FS visit has also been discussed by the relevant teams. You should also read the heads of terms. As a charity it's the Associations duty to ensure donated funds are spent wisely and value for money is achieved . Hence the need for surveys and detailed plans (apologies, I was till editing my post when you responded). Hope that helps to clarify things for you.
     
  4. Jeff Price

    Jeff Price Active Member

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    Thanks

    Reassuring

    I am sure that the condition assessment of both 4110 and 7821 are in the files at Minehead somewhere as both locomotives were inspected prior to purchase by the WSR CME

    Can't imagine much has changed since purchase, just need to find the files, no doubt Andy Foster will know where to look

    Jeff
     
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Surely this *should* be such a formality in these enlightened times it's hardly worth mentioning? PLC giving WSRA *permission to use *their* platform sounds like residual "them and us" to me.

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  6. Snifter

    Snifter Active Member

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    I beg to differ, it sounds like old fashioned common courtesy to me. Nothing sinister in that.
     
  7. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Bill

    Delighted to see this.

    A mistake, IMHO, to make 4561 the priority until its condition, and that of the competing possibilities, is understood on the basis of evidence against the motive power requirements of our Railway. No evidence that that has yet been done, that I can see.

    I would rather speak to a solution rather than opposition to the stated policy at the AGM, so pleased to understand how a different approach might be proposed at the AGM for consideration by the members.

    I appreciate @ Frank C's point about making a success of FS but 'which loco' is an item of policy that will determine events for some years to come and will need to be got right, not just waved through. There are, allegedly, serious difficulties with 4561 which need to be made plain to those considering the wisdom of the form of this suggested policy.

    Robin
     
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  8. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    It was more the inference that it was a potential hurdle/an added complication that worried me, not the asking in itself.

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
  9. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Exactly! I can't see Jeff doing it without first talking to the PLC.
     
  10. FrankC

    FrankC Member

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    Robin

    My point referred to your comment about Station Farm, and was not in relation to the discussion about locomotives. (If you look back you will see that I extracted that part of your comment.)

    Frank
     
  11. jma1009

    jma1009 Active Member

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    Why not sell 4561 as per 6412 (a good precedent) to help with funding for 7821?

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  12. Colin Allcars

    Colin Allcars New Member

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    With the visit of Flying Scotsman 4 weeks away, is there any news on these additional restrictions? I also think I remember an article on WSR.org quoting Frank C to the effect that LSP holders would have to register. Is this correct?
    Will there be any lineside patrols as on other railways? Judging by other FS visits, trespass will be a big problem.
     
  13. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    I have tried not to comment on much of the to be quite frank, twaddle reproduced here recently, however..... The Minehead branch line is in many ways the archetypical GWR seaside branch line; one of the key characteristics of which for many many years were 'pannier tanks' and small 'prairies'. (Please note 43xx 2-6-0s and 51xx 2-6-2 tanks only appeared during the peak season except for the last few years when with withdrawals cascades occurred ie larger locos replacing smaller.)

    Whilst we have invested time and money in accumulating not one but two rakes of 'heritage' coaches, which as of now with the exception of no.6705 have no likelihood of seeing any service for the foreseeable future, we have divested ourselves of a pannier tank. (I know 6412 was a smaller version and a 57xx would have been preferable but it was a pannier tank, found use in the winter, spring and autumn and was a regular favourite at Galas as well as being a part of WSR history). Now we are suggesting selling 4561. For much of the year small prairies were the mainstay of TN-MD services working as per the WTT up to 260 tons Tare trains. (See GWR or BR(W) unassisted loads for the Minehead branch)

    Yes we need to ensure that our Railway operates as a professional, commercial well managed Railway but if we throw away our inheritance for many of us we might as well give up. (After all there will be spare 165s and 166s available soon I suspect, Mr Mendoza here we come ! Oh but there will not be anybody to man the SBs, LCs etc. )

    Please chaps, losing 6412 was sad and unnecessary, losing 4561 would be much of the same. ( By the way whilst I recognise that 7821 fits the requirements well we perhaps should not forget that Manors never worked over the WSR before Preservation and that putting 7821 back into service will cost well in excess of £500K )

    Michael Rowe

    ps I do not understand how spending money on restoring a loco appears not to be cash consuming to the Plc, whereas hiring in is. Ultimately there is an available cash flow to the greater WSR, some of which is by donation. The concept of times are hard so we do not have to honour the effects of depreciation by setting aside for future investment seems a one way street.
    Was not this what caused the MHR and John Bunch difficulties ?
     
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  14. michaelh

    michaelh Well-Known Member

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    Seems a pretty sensible option
     
  15. michaelh

    michaelh Well-Known Member

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    You mention Heritage Coaches - last time I travelled on the WSR (June 2016) half the train was made up of ex DMU vehicles.
     
  16. Jeff Price

    Jeff Price Active Member

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    Well at last we agree on something Mike, not selling any more WSR locomotives

    Now the great thing about the WSR NOT hiring in locomotives is that the fund raising (which as you say Mike you were heavily involved ) may well pay for the overhauls thus the hire fees accrued to the home fleet will stay on the railway.

    There is now almost a large enough home fleet locomotive that should they mostly be in service with one on its 10 year overhaul that off railway loco hire would be an icing on the cake luxury.

    Sadly 5 of the WSR home fleet are out of use with only the 4F and 7F out and about. (6695 is not counted as home fleet yet)

    Straight forward hire fee payments are a loss to the WSR

    Anyway I am glad you had a good meal out before returning to the keyboard.

    Jeff

    BTW The MHR and John Bunch difficulty which included a early morning knock on the door by the boys in Blue (Good morning Sir, may we come in?) was not about deferred maintenance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 11:50 PM
  17. 21B

    21B Active Member

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    If you spend money on something which is your asset then you retain a proportion of the increase in value of that asset caused by the spending. If you hire in you do not. If you buy a house you benefit from the increase in value (ok it can go down in value too, but that is mostly not what has happened over the last 50 years). If you rent, you cannot benefit from any improvement in the value of the house. Perhaps that is what the plc are thinking.


    NO
     
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  18. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

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    West Somerset Railway - Then and Now

    Minehead Ice Cream Kiosk 1963 / 2017

    Staying at the front of Minehead station, a feature which had been here for many years, but has had a number of incarnations, is the ice cream Kiosk. It is a very commercial location. Your photographer has stood, on occasion and counted the number of customers. It is a mystery to me, on a par with thoe possible existence of aliens, the fact that you never see baby pidgeons, and that Trump got elected in the USA that this operation is (1) not handled in-house by the WSR plc, rather than being franchised, and (2) not provided in an appropriately period Kiosk that adds to the heritage appearance of the station rather than being a monstrous modern carbuncle designed to make heritage photography in this area impossible. Just curious.

    1963
    IMG_7140.JPG

    2017
    IMG_7274.JPG
     
  19. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not a communications style that tends to encourage folks. Best to respect the fact that anyone can ask a question and deal with it politely, I find.

    I am not going to use the 'T' word you favour above. Let's stick to the FACTS, however inconvenient you find them.

    I reproduced the WSR loads table a little while ago. 6412 was load 5 bogies. We virtually never run trains that small now other than dining trains and Gala specials. 6412 found occasional use at the times you specify with such little mileage that it was inevitable that there was a big restoration hole every over haul and it did 90% of its mileage on other Railways. How did it make sense for WSRA members / activities to raise / spend that money to support activities elsewhere?

    It is a matter of considerable regret that the old Trustees squandered much of the capital reserve on work booked to 4561 but in fact propping up the moribund present operation at Williton that should now be given a decent funeral and the facilities (and skilled workforce) brought into the WSR mainstream.

    Be careful about statements about the MHR / John Bunch position. As one of the heritage railway lawyer fraternity, I am 'fully sighted' on those events and repeating popular myths as you have done, is not wise, especially when incorrect.

    Heritage coaches -now there is a project to get behind. The WSSRT will shortly be moving on from GWR BCK 6705 to their next 'victim', something we can all enjoy.

    We need to be careful to target our capital and fundraising resources on the right future project. That may require hard choices and careful objective thought. And we don't help that process by unpleasant shouting down if those who prompt us to face radical thoughts and uncomfortable realities.

    Robin
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 12:02 PM
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  20. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Put another way, if the choice were:

    (1) to spend £250K to restore 4561 for off-season and QB use, with it spending the high season off the WSR, or

    (2) to spend £500K to restore 7821 for use theoughout the WSR year including high season,

    (1) Why would you not chose option 2?

    (2) Would not option 2 be easier to enthuse folks with?

    You might disagree with some of my numbers and propositions set out above, but until the work has been done to assess this objectively, how can we decide?

    Robin
     
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