Current and Proposed New-Builds

It looks crap. Not only that but open verandah coaches were very little used in Britain, the only ones I can think of were the Wisbech and Upwell ones and a few destined for South America which ended up on the Weston Clevedon & Portishead Railway.

 

Quite a few narrow gauge as well.

PH

 

But you mentioned standard gauge, a totally different kettle of fish. In NG, many lines didn't really have much of an option but to build new carriages, as they didn't have enough unrestored examples that could have alternately catered for the increased demand.

And in a WIBN world, I'd absolutely agree with you Paul! But railways don't hide their vintage carriages away in preference to Mk1s just for the fun of it - there are practical reasons. Try to be less gricer-ish about carriages please.

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Just you mind who you call a gricer! You know very well it is perfectly possible to run all services with stock of pre- 1923 design. This is done, in the North-East as well as the deep South. Remember what I said about educational charity status having some obligations.

PH

 

Some interesting thoughts on stock. I sometimes feel the emphasis on locos (new build and restorations) leaves the bit of all that history we all bang on about a bit out in the cold. The stuff that paid for all those locos. I love a fully restored MKI, not as much as pre-grouping stock perhaps, but I wonder about overall strategies when something like 'Prince George' looks as though it won't have too much stock representative of it's era to run with without some close examination of what's quietly rotting away awaiting restoration.

Even the Bluebell, with it's wonderful haul of pre-grouping carriages doesn't have too much in the way of front line stock contemporary with it's nearly ready Atlantic. I don't mean to knock the magnificent achievements at HK, and "Beachy Head" will look fantastic on the Maunsell, Bulleid, MKI and Pullman rakes, but recreating a train from the Panter era will remain a pipe dream for the forseeable future...... there's the slight matter of all those grounded bodies to be resuscitated first.

The only lines I know of fielding completely original stock are the IMR, IWSR, L&B and VoR. Even then, quite how long the last two will be able to cope (for all the right reasons) with purely native stock remains to be seen. While I'm about it, how the hell has the VoR managed to operate every season for over two decades with just two of it's three steam locos available? That's an absolutely outrageous level of reliability, especially with 94 year old locos !

 

I refute your first statement. It is possible to run *some* railways with only stock of pre-1923 design, but not all.

The inconsistency you have on your views between locos and carriages is frustrating. To me, replacing Mk1 carriages with new build older carriages is the equivilant of replacing your Ivatt with a new build terrier, O1 or whatever takes your fancy. I presume your accuse me of WIBN by suggesting that, and point out the significant advantages an Ivatt has and the waste of resources going to building a new one that ought to be spent on maintaining what you've got? Neither view is inherently wrong, but to hold the one for carriages and other for locos does seem a little odd.

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I think the answer lies in the fact that for most of those two decades, about 80% of the operating days required only 1 loco in steam at any one time. The 2 train operating days were (though not so much any more) very few and far between. The days of 3 trains together at Devils Bridge are a distant memory.

John

 

Probably forever a pipe dream. The bottom line is that most LBSCR bogie stock from the early 20th century either went to the Isle of Wight, or was withdrawn in the 1930s, with stock on the mainland comprising new Maunsell carriages and older SECR / LSWR bogie coaches cascaded down to secondary duties. So by the 1960s, essentially SECR or LSWR was what was available, except on the Isle of Wight. Hence why the IoWSR can field four LBSCR bogie carriages, but the Bluebell is lucky to have even one (7598, the bogie 1st, which is somewhat unusual example of a bogie carriage restored from a grounded body).

If you search the VCT carriage database for passenger-rated vehicles built for the LBSCR after 1900, you get:

• One operational on the Bluebell (7598, the bogie first)
• Four on the Isle of Wight (two brake 3rds; an all 3rd that has been converted to wheelchair access; and a composite)
• The LBSCR Directors' Saloon on the Bluebell, in need of a massive overhaul and hardly a day-in, day-out carriage anyway.
• One Perishables Van, on the Bluebell
• One cattle wagon converted to passenger luggage van, on the Isle of Wight.

So five "ordinary" carriages, all of which are in service split between two railways, give or take maintenance schedules; one special saloon that requires restoration; and two vans both of which are presentable. That's it - nothing else listed. Maybe there are some grounded bodies out there, but if so, they aren't listed in the VCT database.

Realistically, we will eventually have an LBSCR train of four wheelers from the Victorian era (as well as a second set of LCDR vehicles), but our Edwardian bogie carriages will end up being dominated by SECR vehicles, with a few oddities like the LSWR brake, LNWR Obo, GNR saloon and the Mets. In any case, given that for the foreseeable future Beachy Head will be running as later modified to the SR composite loading gauge, LBSCR carriages would be somewhat inappropriate.

Tom

 

It is a matter of what you have to "tell the story" and what you haven't. On the I.O.W. we have three utterly genuine locomotives whilst nine out of the ten passenger vehicles currently in service have an Island pedigree. It was hoped to build a replica of an "E1" but it proved possible to acquire a genuine one, which is better. Both W8 and W11 have been re-boilered but are 141 and 139 years old respectively. "Calbourne" is not much younger. To spare some of the strain on these antiques, which do remarkably well, the railway needs something newer. Hence the Army Austerities (such machines did passenger work on military railways) and the Ivatts. They are all of a size appropriate for the job in hand. Replicas are not actually needed on the IOW, at least for now.

I am all for replicas which help to "tell the story" and are appropriate for the work in hand. Thus I look with something of a jaundiced eye at projects to build express locomotives to run at 25 m.p.h. whilst schemes such as those for the G5 and 3MT seem fine. No doubt you will correct me but I am not aware of a project to replicate an extinct type of passenger carriage.

Replicas can serve a purpose but they will never be really "kosher" There is a parallel with the replica curved dash Oldsmobiles and Locomobile steam cars which can be bought. In just about every way they are as the originals but they will never be eligible for the London to Brighton run.

Regards,

Paul H

 

You are more open to new builds than I had previously thought, apologies. The trouble is raising money for replica carriages. Really you need a rake, but once you've built one you're no longer building something different, because you've already got one, so it becomes less interesting. I'd love to have some more interesting carriages on the GWSR, but we have to be practical about what we can achieve.

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Still pretty damned impressive, however you slice it! Last time I was there, back when everything had been dipped in woad, it was a 3 trains at Devil's Bridge day. I'd rather the line as it is now, with the two passing loops and intermediate stations looking like stations again. If my train hadn't stopped at Aberffrwd for water, I doubt I'd have realised there was a station under all the vegetation. From what I've seen on clips, the locos sound in immeasurably better nick than they did in the early 70's.... and boy, do those pads on the seat backs ever look an improvement! How long was Torquemada in charge of 3rd class seat design at Swindon?

The only pity is that Aberystwyth Station is a shadow of it's former self though. "Rats" and 101 & 103 dmmus (most with red bufferbeams) everywhere back then.

 

Is there any issues with creating new standard gauge heritage carriages? (Perhaps an issue for it's own thread.) I'm thinking more along the lines of possible safety concerns in collisions.

 

That is a good point, I expect any answer will be complicated!

PH

 

Perhaps you would like to explain this fully, given your quotes above? How exactly can it be better to vandalize the one and only remaining E1 by turning it into an IOW replica! By your standards it should be returned quite correctly to its proper identity of 110 Burgundy/9 Cannock Wood that it has been for over 100 years.

 

Are you sure about the intention of that?

As I read the Strategic Vision Document, dated 2013, it reads:

"Long-term – A long-term objective is to build a replica of one or more former Island locomotive to enhance our historical portrayal."

But in the following paragraph:

"The acquisition of No.2 Yarmouth in 2012 was a major step forward"

Why would you set out the intention to build a replica of locomotive you had already acquired a genuine example of, and made explicit mention of in your Strategic Vision?

So I think the Strategic Vision must imply that the objective of building a replica locomotive is for something other than an E1. I'd suggest a Slaughter-Gruning 2-2-2WT (But more seriously: surely it must mean a Beyer-Peacock 2-4-0T, on the assumption that there is no, or very low, likelihood of acquiring one of the Australian ones).

Tom

 

Really!! "Vandalise" is a ridiculous thing to say. Not in the slightest bit comparable to the modifications to the carriage or the conversion of an Austerity to a tender locomotive.

PH

 

If I am remembering correctly a condition of the bequest was that it was used to either build a new E1 or to acquire 110 and rebuild it as W2 Yarmouth.
If the IOWSR does ever build a replica Locomotive I sense that it would indeed be a Beyer Peacock.

 

No organisation is free from the pernicious grip of WIBN! A sum was left to the railway which would go a considerable way towards building s replica. The sole remaining E1 later became available and so obviated the need for a newbuild. I presume (I don't know) that it's place as an aspiration was taken by another one.

PH

 

Really?! So giving it a new identity and fitting a type of boiler that it never carried isn't vandalism? Let me remind you that both the Mk1 and Austerity survive in numbers up and down the country. 110 is UNIQUE!

 

Well it certainly doesn't conform to any LBSC or Southern spec and hasn't since receiving a (now life expired) Bagnall boiler during industrial service.