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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    At the moment though, nothing can be taken for granted, but should a coach party phone up, can you afford not to say yes, that though could mean losing a return trip if you have only are running with say one rake, to preserve your maintaince, till you catch up, as a coach party using even the one metre rule, will I would imagine take up 3 coaches, but its money in the fares box , but you might find yourself having to turn some people who might turn up on the hope of travelling away,
    There is no easy answer, will people feel confident enough to want to visit a heritage railway?
    Getting back to things WSR, i can remember in the early days, catching an DMU from Crowcombe ( I stayed in the Youth Hostel there) on a cycling holiday) and the service was DMU as far as Williton, then steam from there to Minehead . i don't think there was any through steam workings.
     
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  2. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    On reflection, I wonder if motor coach loadings might be reduced even more than railway carriage ones, particularly if the latter are non corridor. Some motor coaches are notorious for turning up at different times than those for which they are booked. That will be interesting!
     
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  3. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

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    There seems to me to be one significant stumbling block to any sort of change, and will be a problem whatever is decided as the best way of running the WSR in an economically sustainable way, unless the existing board decide to relinquish control voluntarily, which seems a little unlikely.

    And that is the almost unfathomable (to me!) situation regarding share ownership.

    Many posters have alluded to the fact that if any change is to be made, then sufficient shares must be marshalled to ensure a vote can be won.

    Given that most shares appear to be held in small numbers by a huge number of supporters, many of whom may no longer be alive, is there any mechanism by which a potential saviour or action group can access the shareholders list, or is it solely the "property" of the plc?

    And further, what about shareholders who cannot be traced for whatever reason?

    Is it simply a case of ignoring them and focussing on the low hanging fruit such as the large blocks owned by the various charities or support groups?
     
  4. ikcdab

    ikcdab Member Friend

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    Yes, the afternoon steam only ran to williton and DMU ran from there to BL. We even had a special starting signal installed at williton to facilitate the service.
    ian Coleby
     
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  5. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    Does anyone do the Euromillions lottery?
     
  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Quite aside from those very good points, your other infrastructure needs bearing in mind too. A quick look at past WSR timetables suggests the Williton-Blue Anchor section time is probably too long for an hourly service frequency to be feasible, so that is already cutting into the services it's possible to offer
     
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  7. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    Back in the 80s, I often did the same - the mix of steam and dmu (with great views up front of the wildlife) was perfectly OK for me, and most friends I went with.
     
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  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    To go back to this, and to compare it to the comments about the petition being mischief making, taken together they are I think quite revealing, and tell us quite a bit about the mindset of the PLC board.

    On the one hand, Jones Pratt is unwilling to come on here because he believes people are hostile to him.

    This is a strange worldview because while many of us disagree with each other about everything and anything, I struggle to think that anyone on this forum would wish or cheer something bad to happen to someone else.

    He is happy to communicate through mediums where he can control what is said, press releases, social media etc and where there is no challenge to him.

    He is happy to have the bully pulpit to dismiss his critics when it is effectively a monologue. But he is frightened of actually dealing with a situation where he is not in control and he can’t threaten his critics with ex-communication.

    This is quite revealing that he is afraid of coming here because he fears the reception he will get, and on the other hand when he has the megaphone he is happy to dismiss the people writing and signing the petition as ‘mischief makers’.

    Where has control he deals with it by silencing those who challenge him, either kicking individuals off the railway, or by pushing out groups.

    (Content removed by moderators at this point.)

    This I think highlights the unlikelihood of reform under the current board. The necessity of reform is in itself a criticism of the PLC and their actions. It would also entail more and potentially critical voices speaking up against the board. If Jones Pratt is frightened of NP, frightened of people signing a petition, frightened of groups that won’t tug their forelocks and say ‘yes here is a load of cash, no questions asked’. Does anyone seriously believe that the WSR PLC assuming that the line survives the Covid crisis, will then say ‘mistakes have been made, let’s reform all the structures, compromise, share power and accept different points of view.’

    I don’t really see it happening, so I tend to think wishing to survive Covid and then expecting reform is frankly delusional. It’s just not happening. Reform will have to come first if the railway is to survive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2020
  9. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

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    Should shares whose owner cannot be traced or are not prepared to acknowlege their ownership be cancelled? Even though the shares pay no dividend and were bought effectively as gifts to the WSR, shareholding has a certain responsibility in itself. No doubt the Plc board would be horrified at the thought if they are still able to claim they hold the proxy vote for those shares which are "unclaimed" but is that actually the case?
     
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  10. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    But can the Plc act as proxy 'by default' for a shareholder who has not given them specific authorisation to act as such for each and every occasion that a vote is required? Are not such shares simply ignored?
     
  11. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    I've just seen a very interesting significant new post disappear! As in - I read it, was about to reply, and now it has gone!

    I watched the 'Points West' BBC brief interview of JJP the other evening with him addressing apparently a glum lot of staff under the canopy at Minehead Station.

    Would anyone care to update us as to the employees' situation on the WSR, as employed by the WSR PLC board? As a former RMT union 'rep' and former RMT branch secretary their welfare and financial security and continuation of their contracts is of concern to me.

    Contrast the Ffestiniog - which is taking good care of it's employees, and on Saturday 27th June 'Welsh Pony' will be steam tested (online) having been completed during the 'lockdown' (the 'lockdown' is stricter in Wales than in England). None of the Ffestiniog's employees have been threatened with redundancy, and shortly a re-opening is planned.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  12. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

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    No idea, but if a significant number of shares remain unclaimed but still effective they do dilute the remaining shares in terms of percentage required for calling an EGM for instance.
     
  13. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    Yes, we all want a happy ship, which means treating employees (paid or otherwise) properly.

    The Ffestiniog Rly seems to be awaiting re-opening with enthusiasm. I look forward to going there to spend some money.
     
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  14. Maverick

    Maverick New Member

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    I for one think we need to be looking at making sure we head towards a peaceful Somerset, a harmonious Somerset and most importantly a successful Somerset.

    How do we get here? What does success look like?

    A West Somerset Railway members’ Charitable Trust with a clear public benefit purpose
    able to fundraise with the benefit of charitable status.

    A financially sound subsidiary delivering a safe heritage railway nostalgic experience as a valued part of the local tourist economy.

    The existing Charities either (at their choice) subsumed into the main Charity or free to continue within their limited charitable objects.

    Let’s hope the organisations start to listen to all those it invites to help it out and the above is achieved soon.
     
  15. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of preserved railways are planning to re-open soon.

    The WSR ought to be doing the same, as originally suggested between Minehead and Blue Anchor, when it can run long rakes on the easy section gradient wise and comply with social distancing.

    Threatening staff with redundancy is completely unnecessary; and if the SDRT 'Notice to Quit' was withdrawn, and HR policies re-instated (with all the stuff that additionally is required, that I don't want to repeat again), then money could be flowing into the railway as donations to help it out; as has happened on all other preserved railways I am interested in that are well run by their board and have a positive management that is also pro-active.

    Skilled workshop staff who have been there for years are being threatened with redundancy - or else?

    This isn't a bus company where drivers are two a penny. This is a highly skilled set of employees, who will be very difficult to replace if they go elsewhere. They don't deserve to be threatened with redundancy with all the stress and obvious ill feeling that will be created in picking on them and alienating them.

    Good management?

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  16. acourtrail

    acourtrail New Member

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    I would like to add a few things to what people have been discussing over the last few pages.

    Firstly, one person questioned why I am willing to give JJP the benefit of the doubt. It's because, I feel (at this moment in time) there isn't an alternative option, and we HAVE to. While a lot of people feel that how JJP "got into power" was wrong, and that he and the PLC have to go, if this was to happen, it would take valuable time putting in a replacement. Time is one thing the WSR doesn't have, the executive decisions regarding fixing it need to be made NOW. All I feel we can viably do (given that it is an emergency , and we can't afford the time it would take to change the management right now), is to go with who is "in power" at present, and hope to God that JJP is able to fix the WSR and keep it going in one form or another. In an emergency, there isn't time to wait for best people to take charge (if they aren't already in charge), the emergency dictates that (for time reasons) we have to go with whoever takes charge, and hope that they make the right choices. Think about it in another way, a Doctor (we will call him Dr Fred), coming across a child (let's call him Tom) lying unconscious in the middle of the road with several injuries (Tom's parents aren't there, but someone has gone to get them) is not going to wait for Tom's parents to turn up. Dr Fred is going dive straight in and save Tom's life regardless of any religious or cultural factors (obviously, because of who Dr Fred is, people WILL trust him to take charge, but even if several other doctors are there, Dr Fred is still in charge, there isn't time for someone else to take over, Tom's life is at stake). The way I see it, the WSR is Tom, JJP is Dr Fred and the PLC, WSRA, other organisations etc are the other Doctors. Once the WSR has been saved, then is the time to address any problems with JJP, the PLC, WRSA etc, right now, trying to save the WSR comes first (regardless of who is in charge at present). Quite frankly, I don't believe that the WSR can be saved, no matter who is "in power" and whatever they do, but all I can do is hope that somehow I can be proved wrong.

    Regarding the area that the WSR is located in. The problem is that the area isn't in the same league as a lot of other parts of the UK. While Somerset has a lot of attractions, those attractions will always be hindered by the fact that they are in Somerset (and I am not saying that to have a dig at Somerset, but as a man who was born in and has lived his entire life in Somerset, and can only too clearly see the image problem the county he lives in has). In any tourist area, the majority of those tourists will be from other parts of the UK, and those tourists will choose where they go on the basis of what they THINK the area is like (often based on their perception of said area (which will be based on stereotypes)). A lot of people's perception of say Cornwall (people from outside of Cornwall, I must add), is "Cornwall is full of surfers and nice sandy beeches, and they all eat nice hearty filling pasties and delicious cream teas every day", in other words, their perception is based on media stereotypes of what Cornwall is like. Now obviously (as any Cornish person will tell you), there is heck of a lot more to Cornwall than those stereotypes, but regardless of what Cornwall does, they will never be able to shake off that image people elsewhere have of Cornwall. Even though I am sure Cornwall gets tired of everyone else thinking of them by those stereotypes, it doesn't hurt Cornwall in terms of attracting tourists, because it is a stereotype that portrays Cornwall in a positive way (even though it doesn't give Cornwall's other great things the credit they deserve). People will visit Yorkshire because their idea of Yorkshire is "they are all warm and friendly in Yorkshire, and the scenery like the moors and dales is so beautiful" (obviously, those people are overlooking the many other great things about Yorkshire). I could go on describing the most popular counties for tourism and the reasons (due to outsider's positive stereotypical views of those counties) why they are so popular, but people should by now get the idea of what I am saying. Now, with Somerset, a lot of outsider's idea of Somerset is clouded by the negative stereotypes (often created by the media) they have of Somerset and it's people. A lot of people from elsewhere in the UK (wrongly) think "Somerset is just loads of "yokel farmers" who just eat straw and drink cider all the time" (not exactly appealing to tourists is it). Now obviously Somerset isn't really like that, but no matter what Somerset does, it will never be able to shake off that negative stereotype, due to hundreds of years of people being wrongly informed about Somerset by the media.

    Some people have suggested the WSR could carry on in a shorter form (Minehaed - Blue Anchor). One of the few things that DOES attract people is it's length (obviously, it needs to pay for itself regardless of length, and paying for itself is a big problem at the moment). While a shortened WSR may work in the short term (as long as the railway was extended back to Bishop's Lydeard as soon as possible), the problem is making it worth it (if the railway stayed in a truncated form) in the long term. If the railway is just a short couple of miles line at Minehead, there would be the problem of getting people to turn up. The roads to Minehead are a nightmare during the summer, and most people just won't bother going there. One way a permanently truncated Minehead - Blue Anchor form of the WSR COULD work, would be as an integral part of the Butlins outfit. Such an operation would be best as a miniature railway (a sort of Pecorama type "sit and ride" railway) or even a "Dotto Train" running along the trackbed (the Butlins clientele would be happy with a "sit and ride" railway or even a "Dotto Train" because they see a train ride as a novelty thing for entertainment, and tend not to care as long as it "looks train like", also, a miniature railway might be cheaper to run than full size trains). Regarding the Bishop's Lydeard end of the line, unless that end of the line stayed open (or reopened fairly quickly, if the WSR was to reopen bit by bit), there is an issue with some of the bridges between Bishop's Lydeard and Crowcombe Heathfield. The issue is not their condition (AFIAK, they are OK, unless someone with more knowledge knows otherwise), but the fact that they span a very busy main road and create a major barrier for lorries etc. When the WSR first started as a preserved railway, they had to fight hard to stop those bridges being demolished (at the time, the WSR still had ambitions of running trains into Taunton as a commercial DMU service). With the goal of running regular commercial trains having been abandoned by the WSR many years ago, and a road lobby who (desperately in need of an improved road to Minehead that is free of obstructions and height restrictions) WILL use the WSRs recent track record as "proof" that the WSR "can't run a viable tourist service" over the Bishop's Lydeard end, it will be a much harder battle for the WSR to win an argument for those bridge staying put if (once the railway is running again) they are not running trains over those bridges or won't be within a fairly short of time after resuming operations. One of the things that has kept those bridges where they are, is the original prospect of regular commercial services (which didn't materialise), and later on, a successful tourist railway (these were enough to defeat the road lobby's arguments demands for the those bridges demolition and road improvements). Before people bring up "Butt's Bridge" on the MHR, that was one bridge (not four), on a railway that was proving beyond doubt it could be run successfully, at the time the bridge work got underway.

    Has anyone considered that the S&D trust being kicked out of Washford could ironically turn out in the S&D trusts favour in the long term. Think about it, they are getting heaps of extra support, and their new home (wherever that may be) could turn out even better than what they have at Washford. Imagine if somehow the S&D trust ended up at Midsomer Norton with loads of support and donations from enthusiasts (bearing in mind the popularity of the S&D in general, and the sympathy the trust is getting)? If that extra money was added to the Midsomer Norton outfit's funds, it could well mean the railway there being able to dig out the tunnel at Chilcompton, and head towards Shepton Mallett, boosting the status of that railway.
     
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  17. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    posts that play to use a cricket analogy a person and not the ball will be subject to moderation .
     
  18. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think some looking up of the Companies Acts might be useful, the one possibly applicable being Sections 1085 to 1092 of the 2006 version ,dealing with access to the register of shareholding members and making copies of them. A member with legal experience would be useful.

    I was involved in the 'goings on' within another organisation some 25 years ago. The Companies Act then was the 1989 version, particularly Sections 354 and 356 the keeping a register of shareholding members and the accessing of them by these member during office hours. One could request a list of member for which a charge could be made. A refusal to supply would be an offence.

    There is also the 2013 Act but have no idea how, or if, it makes any difference to the forgoing.

    It would surprise me if these provisions of the 1989 Act were not carried over in later versions. Interesting bedtime reading for some, perhaps?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  19. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I think you mean football rather than cricket. Unless, this is a new innovation to bring in the crowds. Ironically, cricket between Crowcombe and Stogumber did once lead to a punch up between the villages.

    If individuals are in power and that person puts themselves at the forefront of their organisation, it is a little bit difficult to criticise the organisation without criticising the individual, especiially if the individual has a crucial position in whether the line survives or dies, it is a little bit difficult to criticise without criticising the person.

    If the mindset and attitudes of an individual influence their behaviour towards critics and to dissent, then it directly impacts on chances of the line reforming either before or after Covid.

    It is akin to saying that you can discuss the band but not talk about how much you dislike the new singer or the direction they are taking the band, the band members they have kicked out, and their attitude towards fans who are critical of the singer, especially when their last album tanked.

    There's an elephant in the room but we can't talk about it because we're afraid of hurting the elephant's feelings.
     
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Time was, I’d have given that interpretation the benefit of the doubt. But too much has happened for the trust to be there for me to keep giving that benefit of the doubt. Too many false steps, too many actions that make me think of TopShop, or Sports Direct; businesses which I avoid on principle.

    As for that Panglossian view of what has happened at Washford, I’d love to see such a positive outcome. But even in the vanishingly unlikely event that it did, I would still find the manner in which notice to quit was given completely unacceptable to me. It is that which would colour my entire view of what is happening, not the result. I should add that I am not a member of the S&DRT, lack the interest in the S&D to join, and have been dismissive of S&D themed galas in the past.

    Business ethics matter to me, and what I’ve seen happen from the plc has to this outsider seemed beyond the pale. And it is from there that I believe change must happen, as I believe that the WSR can not prosper when managed in such a way, because it can only alienate those it needs to make friends of.


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