If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Photography at level crossings - advice

Discussion in 'Photography' started by johnnew, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. johnnew

    johnnew Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    124
    Occupation:
    PRO The Stephenson Locomotive Soc.
    Location:
    Dorset, UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Photography at level crossings - advice please

    In a recent issue of Steam Railway there was some justified vitriolic prose about what appears to have been stupid photographer behavior on a recent Castle hauled tour.

    At several auto barrier crossings near where I live there is a line-side fence inside (i.e. nearer the track) than the road vehicle lifting barriers so it is perfectly safe in practical terms to go through the road stop line but stay behind this fence to take your shot. From behind the road barriers it is not possible to get a good shot due to line-side vegetation. Not been for a few years to either of these locations so situations might have changed recently but when I was last there photoing from (a) the closed off walkway at Shawford on the down side island and (b) the southern end of the east platform at Church Fenton would be similar cases where advice might be needed on acceptability (both are 100% safe locations where you are behind track access safety barriers and in no danger but both scenarios put you in supposedly closed areas).

    Does anyone know what the attitude would be in situations like this where you are well off the immediate line-side, you have stayed behind safety barriers and are in no danger but you are in front of other barriers?

    Over the years I have seen some absolute crass stupidity and I stress that neither I nor the bodies in my signature images condone dangerous and irresponsible trespassing hence asking this question. I have no wish to be seen as an irresponsible trespasser by service train drivers when I'm out and about thus stopping or delaying the tour I've gone out to see and, depending on the answers, may need to modify my access attitude from safe and sensible to 100% legal.
     
  2. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    2,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Although I do not speak with authority I can only comment that: a) drivers WILL report persons in places where they believe they should not be and trains will subsequently be cautioned/delayed and b) you answered your own question. If it's closed then it is closed for a reason and off limits.

    We unfortunately live in a culture of "where there's blame there's a claim. What if the walkway were to collapse? There would be liability and on whose shoulders would that fall?

    With regards to level crossings it's a lot more straight forward. If you are inside the barrier / gate / stile / white line purely to photograph then you are trespassing. Crossings are designed for crossing and not loitering. Risk assessments are carried out on the basis of MOP crossing times based on the type of crossing involved.

    As I say, I do not speak with authority but comment on what information I have to work with day in and day out.
     
  3. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There is a lot of discussion of trespassing on the Moorland and City Railways thread. One thing that I noticed on researching this was that there is no offence of trespass where the railway is also a highway, as would be the case at a level crossing. I don't think that one could have the concept of no trespass when the barriers were up and trespass when they were down because the land does not cease to be a highway for that period. What would be the position at open crossings where behaviour is left to one's judgement? There may be a more obscure offence in railway legislation to deal with people who gratuitously stand too close to the action but not within any gate or barrier. Someone must know.
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,568
    Likes Received:
    2,345
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Re: Photography at level crossings - advice please

    No matter what the legal position, surely the issue is where you are are from the perspective of the driver? If you appear to the crew to be the wrong side (and they have to make a judgement at up to 75 mph) then you are being irresponsible in my view. They don't know what your intent is, and may well be forced to make an emergency application just in case. Either way you would be putting them under unnecessary duress.
     
  5. Stu in Torbay

    Stu in Torbay Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,829
    Likes Received:
    42
    Occupation:
    GPS Navigation Engineer
    Location:
    Goodrington Bank, Paignton
    Perhaps we should have a whip round and send a Nat Pres representative to the next one of these events?: home
     
  6. johnnew

    johnnew Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    124
    Occupation:
    PRO The Stephenson Locomotive Soc.
    Location:
    Dorset, UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I was fairly sure the consensus re places like Shawford & Church Fenton would be don't and these days I probably wouldn't either. Also I can't recall visiting a foot only crossing recently where there has been any ambiguity as to where the fence line is that you shouldn't pass other than to cross the line . The issue that still seems unclear though from posts above is which is the stay behind fence line at road crossings.

    I haven't got a photo of mine to hand to show what I mean but this link to Google Maps shows one of the places I mean locally. To the right of the small sign yes - 100% wrong and very stupid but between that point and the lifting barrier is the grey area as it is safe but ?

    I rarely go to crossings for photos but did scope this one out recently whilst looking for somewhere as a change from my usual spots. Due to that item in Steam Railway last time out I stopped, looked at it, and went on to Moreton Station instead, so yes I suppose I' did answer my own question but at other locations on different days?
     
  7. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    That would be interesting at Cathiron (footbridge & phot spot between Nuneaton & Rugby), since the 4 tracking, the pallisade fence that separates the path up onto the bridge from the line is literally inches from the down relief, presumably NR are happy with that situation or it would never have been put that way.

    Edit, actually I think it's the down fast, the down lines are arse about face at this point.
     
  8. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,069
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Location:
    Shropshire
    I have no insight into what laws/bylaws might say, but looking at the link to google maps I would be inclined to say that it would not be wise. Yes, I agree that to the right of the sign would clearly be foolish and dangerous, but of course the sign is there to tell you not to walk down the railway. To the left of the sign might be safe, but so would many places inside the boundary fences of the railway, but we shouldn't do it. My thoughts about the crossing would be centred around what the driver might be thinking. He sees someone the wrong side of a barrier at a level crossing - does he know who they are, does he know what they are doing there, can he be certain that they are not going to suddenly run across the tracks? And before anyone says that enthusiasts wouldn't act stupidly like that, unfortunately some might. I don't think that it is good for those of us who have an enthusiasm for all things rail-like to put those who work on the railways under that sort of uncertainly and stress.

    There is also the question of what message we may give to others (including children and youngsters) if they see folk the wrong side of the barrier. Would they then think it is ok to wait there ready to cross? Or perhaps to think "maybe I could get across before that train gets here?"

    My suggestion would be to treat the barrier in exactly the same way as a fence - when the barrier is lowered, stay behind it! Then there is no doubt.

    Steve B
     
  9. TFT

    TFT Member Loco Owner

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    54
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    South Yorkshire
    Re: Photography at level crossings - advice please

    Surely most photographers know the difference between right and wrong and, don't need someone to tell us. Those that do know, but care to ignore, deserve to be prosecuted. Its quite simple really, if you are not sure don't do it.
     
  10. johnnew

    johnnew Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    124
    Occupation:
    PRO The Stephenson Locomotive Soc.
    Location:
    Dorset, UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I raised this initially because of comments in a magazine about photographers who from the words written (and I wasn't there so it is all we have) felt strongly enough that what they were doing was OK to argue back with the driver of the tour after it had stopped to b*****k them. The editorial also backed up the allegation they were in the wrong. In at least one well publicised instance therefore whilst most photographers may know what's acceptable some clearly don't.

    As a result I thought of some locations I've been to in the past where perhaps I had also been erring on the erroneous, even if remaining perfectly safe, and asked for clarification of current attitudes. Suggestions have been made, I think the advice is good, and I thank the respondents for their time. As a result I think I will prudently drop one or two of my past, albeit infrequently used, photo locations from future plans as although they are 100% safe places to stand, and are behind a fence line, that inner fence line is NOT the designated limits barrier and it isn't worth the possible hassle.

    Probably my last post therefore into this thread, once again thanks for the useful feedback.
     
  11. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Re: Photography at level crossings - advice please

    No-one seems to have tackled my query about the fact that trespass does not occur when the railway is also a highway and what judgement should be made at an open crossing. My approach would be keep in line with the railway fence on either side. The law of railway trespass does have some odd outcomes. If the line is at grade one can be 2m from the trains but in order because of the intervening fence. At the top of a deep cutting one can be 15m from the trains but trespassing if the fence has been crossed. I find that the best shots are from overbridges; totally safe and a nice firm parapet to balance one's camera.
     
  12. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    2,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Re: Photography at level crossings - advice please

    To tackle the question that you have raised, at a barriered crossing, the barrier and the STOP line are the boundary for when a train approaches. Likewise with an Open crossing, the STOP line marks the boundary. To cross this when lights show is a Road Traffic Offence. The ORR website Legislation on level crossings is a good place to start looking up the various bits of legislation covering the use of level crossings of all types. There is a list of these legislative provisions and a link to Legislation.gov.uk which if studied, will cover everything about level crossing provision, maintenance, use and misuse.

    To make life a bit easier, the ORR have drawn up a "Guidance for Users of Level Crossings" based on legislation. http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/using_level_crossings_safely.pdf

    In this it states:

    • You must obey instruction signs, warning lights and alarms.
    • If there are no barriers or lights, stop, look and listen, then look again before you cross. Remember that trains travel faster than you think and that your view can be obscured by bushes, trees, structures and bends in the track.
    • If it is safe to cross, cross quickly, taking care not to slip or trip on the track. Stay alert while you are crossing the track.
    • Do not stop on the crossing.

    For AHB's:

    • If you are not in a vehicle, stop somewhere clear of the barriers, behind the stop line, until they are fully raised and the crossing is clear.

    For AOCL's

    • If you are not in a vehicle, stay somewhere safe and clear of the crossing until the crossing is clear. There will often be a white line showing you where to wait.

    This document covers all forms of crossing from full barrier and gated to Open Crossings and Footpaths.

    In the Rule Book (available to view at: Rule Book) it states in section G1:

    "You are lineside if:
    • you are between the railway boundary fence and or the area called on or near the line, and
    • you can be seen by the driver of an approaching train.

    You are not lineside if you are on a station platform."

    On or Near the Line
    "You are on or near the line if you are:
    • within 3 metres (10ft) of a line and there is no permanent fence or structure between you and the line
    • on the line itself

    You are not on or near the line if you are on a station platform unless you are carrying out engineering or technical work within 1.25 metres (4ft) of the platform edge.

    You are not on or near the line if you are crossing the line at a level crossing."

    The important bit about the last sentence is "crossing". If you are on a level crossing yet not crossing the line eg: taking a photo, then you are on or near the line / lineside whether a train is approaching or not.

    The above is a bit wordy but I have tried to paraphrase as much as possible and hope that it has in some way answered your question?
     
  13. johnnew

    johnnew Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    124
    Occupation:
    PRO The Stephenson Locomotive Soc.
    Location:
    Dorset, UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry to post again but this was my original confusion point, at crossing sites where there is an inner permanent fence line does that then become the de-facto boundary alignment at that specific spot?

    At sites like this one on the ECML near Shipton by Beningbrough it is absolutely clear where the gate/fence line and therefore the access boundary when not actually crossing the line falls. There is no inner fence, beyond the gate = wrong no argument.

    However at the crossing in the link I first posted (Woodsford, near Crossways, Dorset) there is a fence line you would be behind even if ahead of the lifting barrier. At Woodsford facing an approaching up train and standing on the south east side of the road you would be on the white stop line, cross the road to the south west side and although you are physically no nearer the running line you would then be a couple of metres on the track side of the vehicle stop line because of the road angle but still behind the fence line.

    I think I have clarified in my own mind such sites are borderline at best, and so it is extremely unlikely I will consider them in future, but the above highlights the grey area. The issue therefore is the status of these inner fences as I don't think anyone reading this thread would want to stop trains through an accidental transgression of rules when they thought they were in an OK and safe spot.
     
  14. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Re: Photography at level crossings - advice please

    Thank you "Shaggy" (I hope that you're not called that at work) for such a comprehensive reply pointing all of us in the right direction. Section 13 of the Law Commission's report makes particularly interesting and informative reading. I think that I have read it correctly in that, apart from the offence of disobeying a "red figure", the only action that can be taken in respect of pedestrians "misbehaving" on a public highway level crossing comes from various offences not really intended to deal with the "dallier" (who may or may not be a photographer) rather than the brisk crosser. I can see that proving that an offence took place would often not be easy and that at open crossings with nothing more than a "give way" sign nigh on impossible. Precision of law often only comes from someone being prosecuted as a test case and inevitably there is focus on the unfortunate defendant where getting a conviction becomes mixed with trying to determine what precisely the circumstances are to show an offence. It is not surprising that the Commission recommends comprehensive revision.

    The best practice is to keep behind any point in line with the railway fence. It all brings home just what a legacy of difficulties flows from the original acceptance of level crossings in C19 Acts and that we should be pursuing replacement rather than modernisation. Tramways add to the confusion because they can change from railway-style reserved formation, subject to railway-type trespass law, to reserved track within the highway where no-one needs to walk but is not prevented from so doing, to pedestrian areas where only contrasting paving denotes the sweep of the tram. In Manchester last week I was horrified at the way in which, in the city centre, people wandered in front of trams as though they had sponge-rubber bumpers.
     
  15. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    2,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I really should have looked at your Google link earlier as I know Woodsford 38 crossing well and you have indeed answered your own question. Although it is no closer on the south west side you are inside the barrier and stop line and in contravention of the laws governing level crossings.

    The inner fence is not a boundary fence as it stops only a couple of metres up the track. It is an additional fence positioned against the trespass guards to prevent trespassers from simply sliding round the fence post and getting onto the track without having to negotiate the trespass guards. These are common especially in 3rd rail areas.

    I hope this clarifies the reasoning for this "inner fence"?

    Don't fear John. I'm not called Shaggy at work although everyone knows it's my nickname! It relates to the character from Scooby Doo and comes from a time when I played Saturday morning league football. A long and very uninteresting story!
     
  16. johnnew

    johnnew Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    124
    Occupation:
    PRO The Stephenson Locomotive Soc.
    Location:
    Dorset, UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Having seen the text on another forum today of the BTP appeal for information about the incident that led me to start this thread, including photos of the people wanted for questioning over it, any doubt anyone may still have is dispelled as to the barrier line they, i.e. the BTP regard as the trigger point for action.

    [See BTP appeal to identify trespassers nr. Ashchurch - UK Prototype Discussions (not questions!) - RMweb ]
     

Share This Page