NRM & Barry Scrapyard

I here things are happening down at Barry again.....I cant say what exactly all will be revealed in the fullness of time

One suggestion i have put forward is the idea of letting 9F 92245 tell the Barry story within the NRM

Early days as yet the idea is, one day parked next to a returned 92220 it would indeed tell an important chapter in railway history one which is still onging on there very pages

Over to you and your thoughts.........

 

you will see that I wrote in this discusion topic "Room for one more in the NRM?" on the 11/11/09 this.

I didn't realise that there was still a 9F at Barry, but that in my mind would be the ideal candidate, as if and when they get Evening Star back at York, you would have a great before and after.

 

It's a brilliant idea, as I've said elsewhere, railway preservation isn't just about the pretty end product. The warts and all tell half the story.

 

I belive one of the problems preventing evening star steaming again is a cracked firebox, perhaps the ex-barry 9F would make a good source of "original" spare parts?

 

If I recall correctly, even if returned to steam Evening Star could only run on preserved lines because Network Rail and BR before them won't allow flangeless wheels (the centre drivers) on their tracks.

 

that is correct, its because of that that 92212 has not gone mainline the only way round it would be to re tire the centre drivers , but then that might cause other problems, and whilst most of us would love to see Evening Star back in steam, would the NRM be willing to do it if she cant run mainline and its not as if there isnt any other 9fs out there that are , or going to be in steam

 

Dont want to put noses out of joint and upset a few good deals etc

 

HR134 reports 3 more have been released to the GWS. 5227 is donating its boiler to a Churchward County 4-4-0, 4115 wheels and extension frames are going to the 47xx project, and 2861 is to donate it's cylinder block to the 47xx for modifying. Have also heard of plans for 4115's boiler but will await an official announcement before revealing these plans myself.

 

So the GWR butchers are at it again. Why wern't these locos offered to the preservation movement as complete locos to be restored?

 

Yep, its a disgrace to see those hordes of keen volunteers queuing up with well filled pockets being sent away empty handed. What's more there are certainly no Barry wrecks in better condition elsewhere waiting to be restored with no workers or money in sight.

Although to my mind it might be better to have broken the locos for spares, especially spare boilers. A couple each of Std 2 & Std 1 boilers, stored securely just needing the last stages of work before the ticket starts counting, would, I suspect, do far more to keep engines steaming than abother recreation project, and I don't know that the spirit of Churchward would be entirely grateful at the recreation of what, by his standards, was something of a flop. On the other hand chopping up something you don't need to make something you do is completely in the Swindon tradition.

 

I guess that is a question which will be the subject of some debate on this forum and others no doubt. I do have mixed feelings about cannibalising one locomotive to help restore another or, as seems to be the case here, to create an extinct class or classes. However, there are arguments for and against. One of the main "fors" being that 5227, 4115 and 2861 are all fairly well represented as classes in preservation already. For me, 4115 would probably be the best loco to leave "as is" for heritage railway use but I seem to recall 5199 being chosen in place of 4115 as the former was in much better condition. Regarding the Churchward County 4-4-0, it is an interesting choice. These locomotives were not long lived by Churchward's standards; appearing in 1904 and all scrapped by 1933. Forty were built and they were designed partly in response to LNWR objections to the use of 4-6-0s over the Shrewsbury and Hereford Joint Line. The combination of large outside cylinders and a short coupled wheelbase resulted apparently in a tendency for these Counties to roll quite badly and they quickly gained a reputation for rough riding (especially when compared to the 4-4-0 inside cylinder City class locos. Indeed, many of the Dean/Churchward 4-4-0s outlived them. Studying photos of these locos leaves me with the view that they were not one of Churchward's better designs and they seem very ungainly to my (non-engineer) eyes. Clearly any new County 4-4-0 probably won't be expected to haul 10 coach trains at speed on the National Network but to be honest, you know I just wouldn't bother to build one life size. Make a live steam model of a 4-4-0 County instead and restore 5227 to working order, it will pull anything and will look better, especially as there is no 42/52xx at Didcot yet (Yes there is a 2-8-2T but you know what I mean).

 

Even less chance of a working future for the lines of out of ticket locos at Didcot then as another round of 12" to the foot scale kitbashing starts and takes all the available effort.

I can't help thinking that the loss of 4115 in particular will come to be regretted in the future as this is a loco of a useful size for many ex GW lines.

No mention of 6686. In the whole of South Wales there is not a single properly preserved ex GWR loco - yet locos of type 42xx, 28xx, 56xx amongst others played a very large part in the economic well being of the area in the first half of the 20th century. It seems strange indeed that this is not recognised. This loco would now seem to represent a last opportunity in this respect.

What is it about S Wales & railway preservation which makes this area such a disaster area compared to the rest of the country?

 

From what I hear there are plans for 44901, 6686, 80150 and 92245, but negotiations are still ongoing to obtain their release. I haven't heard of the plans myself, the only 1 I know anything much on is 4115 which as revealed is going to be used for the 47xx.

The latest release is for 2861, 4115 and 5227 only. Personally I'd love to see 6686 and 5227 be restored for use in South Wales as 1472 suggests, but all talks with the VoG Council go through the Cambrian Transport group who don't appear to have this view. Saying that 5539 wouldn't be getting restored without the CT group, and neither would 5538.

 

Without wanting to stray too much off topic, I can't agree with the last comment...South Wales a disaster area? Granted we have seen the unfortunate demise of the Swansea Vale and Barry Island Railways but as every cloud has a silver lining, the resultant upheval has contributed to making the remaining organisations that little bit stronger. P and B will be openning their extension this year, at the Gwili we are now in our 24th consecutive year of steam haulage, a few railways across the border wouldn't mind that record.

I suspect the issue is more to do with the lack of a 'premier' league railway or ex GWR/BR loco in the region ; I can only speak from the Gwili point of view, the dream of restoring our own Barry wreck was there in the late 70's but it was gradually replaced with realism and the economics involved. As a new railway starting off then, it was much easier to take the Austerities on offer which were recently displaced from the NCB, more complete than the Barry wrecks left at the time. With a limited pot of money we could not go for broke on a Barry wreck with extensions to build, infrastructure to install and the like. We moved in on site in 1978 with a bare platform and a single track - no buildings, no sheds, nothing. Even now, 30 years later we are not in a position to spend disproportionatley on locos. The cost of restoring 6686 versues say aquiring 7760 and restoring that even if there was money available just make it very unlikely that 6686 would be snapped up by anyone either inside or outside South Wales. I'm not saying it's impossible, people have stepped in to restore 5538/9, but they do not live in South Wales and must have very deep pockets!

That is really what you are asking for here - anybody looking to restore 4115 or 6686 in original form would have to be groups/individuals rather than railways- very few railways themselves these days have the appetite/cash for doing a complete job on a barry wreck.

Now if we on the Gwili had a few ex Swindon machinists in retirement who knew 66xx's inside out, a bloke who would run a brick a brack shop every week to raise some cash and a shed to put all the bits in we might stand a fighting chance of doing something. In the absence of this any other action would just be tokenism, sadly.

 

With respect, the locos have never been advertised and have always seemed to be clouded with an air of secrecy/'not available'/'conditions apply'. I seem to recall that Ian Riley tried to buy the black 5 and gave up in the end because of the bureaucracy/unworkable conditions attached. If the locos were put up for sale in the 'normal' manner then I'm pretty sure that most if not all would be snapped up - look at Cogan Hall, that didn't take long to sell did it?
As others have said, it seems a shame to break these locos without seeing if there is interest in restoring them to their original condition. It also seems rather pointless and dare I say greedy for the GWS to start yet more projects when it has so many others on the go (with appeals still very much open), and will presumably be appealing for funds to improve it's site now that the lease issue seems to be resolved.


Keith

 

Yes to all this - but what is so different in South Wales? - are there NO engineering skills, NO project leaders, NO unemployed youngsters, NO government grants in deprived areas for training initiatives, NOBODY with enough balls to restore just ONE ex big four loco?

The Gwili is a super railway, if as yet a little short, yet it seems unable to get through the "proper motive power for the line" barrier which a lot of other lines have successfully long passed. (and I know this comment will bring howls from the pro industrial loco faction). How many more would visit the line and the area for a holiday if they thought this had been sorted.

Similar comment applies to the P & B - I know there are others.

 

One ex BR loco has been restored in South Wales and that was The South Wales Pannier Groups 9642 which was restored at the Swansea Vale Railway.

At the Pontypool & Blaenavon Railway 9629 is slowly being restored by the Pontypool & Blaenavon Loco Group as time and funds permit.

Most of our volunteers time at Blaenavon at the moment is spent on developing the railway and its infrastructure and in my opinion 90 % or more of our passingers dont care whats on the front of the train as long as it is steam.

 

Would agree with that, in 2006 I arranged a gala on the Gwili with SVR pannier 5764, the total attendance being 171. Hardly enough to cover the transport and hire, let alone make a profit. It was a similar story in 2008 when we hired 4566. Interesting to note from another thread that the Avon Valley are having doubts about whether to repeat the hire of an ex BR loco. For railways such as ourselves, P and B, Avon Valley etc we can manage a once every so oftern hire but it could never be justified for a whole season unbless there was no other option. Railways at this stage of their development i.e with some running line but the potential for more inevitably comprimise with industrials so that they can fund developments too. Those Barry engines that are on site are inevitably long term and lower prioriry jobs.

It all boils down to cost/practicality , not desire or enthusiasm.