LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust and proposed new build

Greetings,

Some of you may have heard or read of rumours of a proposal for a new build London & North Western Railway George the Fifth Class. This is just to inform everyone here that the trust is up and running and the first tentative steps have been taken. As a recently-joined member who is arguably the most internet-savvy (I hope they don't mind me saying that) I'm making this post to outline where the project is currently at. Very early days of course:

1. Formation of a steering group. After the LNWR Society AGM last May a steering group of four was formed: Paul Hibberd, Derek Buckles, Ray Berry - drawings Officer of the LNWR Society and Bruce Nixon. Since then two meetings have been held and considerable progress made with the allocation roles and the drawing up of an overall strategy. Sadly Ray Berry, a gifted engineer and scientist who was an enormous asset to the trust, died suddenly earlier this year. A display for the LNWR Society annual dinner last year was presented. The LNWR Society, under its Chairman Peter Stanton and several of their officers have given the project tremendous support. The Trust has also had regular contact with the Camden Railway Heritage Trust and has received considerable support.

2. Charitable Trust. The LNWR GEORGE THE FIFTH STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TRUST has been established. The trust is currently obtaining quotes for indemnity insurance and we have opened a dedicated bank account.

3. Drawings. A large body of drawings held by the NRM and the LNWR Society have been studied. Regrettably the tragic and untimely passing of the trust's engineer, Mr Ray Berry means that the trust is seeking someone to fulfil this role and encourages interested parties to make contact at: georgevtrust@gmail.com. Some time ago the Trust had discussions about which locomotive and what version to build with a number of people, like Ted Talbot and Roger Bell who bought and saved Princess Elizabeth for instance. These have led us to the conclusion that with the George the Fifth class was an outstanding performer and would honour Charles Bowen Cooke who was one of the most outstanding locomotive engineers of his time. With further improvements it will offer the best performance for either mainline or heritage lines. Furthermore the Trust aims to introduce technical improvements to overcome known deficiencies and take advantage of modern technical developments and building techniques to produce an even more distinguished locomotive. This will make it a project with appeal to engineers.

4. NRM Railfest. An important opportunity to promote the project has come up in the form of the NRM Railfest Railfest 2012 - National Railway Museum. Thanks to Brian Hall, the B17 Project are generously sharing their stand with us. The trust will be manning the stand Friday 8 June through to Sunday 10 June - informing the public about our project and hopefully recruiting Covenanters (regular subscribers). An attractive display which will include a video showing the construction of “Coronation” and its emergence in from Crewe Works steam in shiny lined black gloss has been created. Also they a replica of Coronation's nameplate has been created to display thanks to one of the owners who kindly supplied a photograph. Hopefully anLNWR steam whistle will also be on display.

5. Financial backing. The trust has a generous donor who wishes to be anonymous. He has offered £50K in five year tranches of £10K provided the trust can first match these sums through fundraising efforts. Currently the trust guesstimates a £1.5 M for the project. That is a relatively small sum compared with the cost of building much larger locomotives and certainly achievable if the trust is well organised and determined. However it is still an enormous amount.

6. Website. The first iteration of the Trust's website has been established where contact information, details on the class, preliminary details on the project, and forms for Single donations and becoming a Covenantor can be found. The Trust hopes to establish an online donation system and a regular newsfeed on the site. The website can be found at:

LNWR George the Fifth Steam Locomotive Trust

The trust urgently needs someone to act as Secretary/Admin, Treasurer and Book Keeper, as well as a Drawings officer with engineering experience. The Trust shall also need an auditor and is seeking other team members to fill the required roles and backers, as well as a base for the project and construction of the locomotive.

 

Huh, not another one! The "new build" theme tune ought to be Schubert's Unfinished Symphony.

 

This new build proposal has been in planning for quite a few years. Hardly someone going through a Hornby or Bachmann catalogue and picking a lost class and then establishing a facebook page. The gentlemen involved have been highly reticent about saying too much and promising too much.

Incidentally quite a few new builds will no doubt be completed, many of course will not.

 

Seemingly a lot better organised than the recent new build proposals, though. Not simply enthusiastic youngsters with no experience. however, i wonder whether the founders are at the wron end of the age spectrum to see such a project through. It probably needs some young blood mingling with it to ensure success.

Whilst I like the choice of loco, it's not good for main line work and arguably, not the best choice for heritage line work, either, although heritage lines can usually provide some work for locos throughout the spectrum of size from 0-4-0 to 4-6-2 and there aren't too many 4-4-0's around.

 

By all means be skeptical but I can assure you that this proposal is hardly a piece of wishful thinking and youthful exuberance. Admittedly, there are huge hurdles and the antics of certain facebook new-builds perhaps hasn't helped. (edit - this was meant to be a reply to paulhitch, not Steve

 

Absolutely, and hopefully some younger blood will join. The gentlemen in question will be at Railfest and if anyone wants to pose the hard questions, they'll be all ears. I'm just helping with the internet side of things. I'm 38 so I guess I personally count as 'youngish' blood although my location prevents active participation. Early days and a long road ahead. As to the suitability, I'd tender that this class would be ideally suited for preservation lines - they were a compact, mechanically simple with a reasonable loading gauge yet very powerful class. The most powerful simple 4-4-0's of their time.

 

Youthful exuberance no, wishful thinking very likely. Sadly one of the leading lights has already died and this highlights a situation where an enormous amount of effort and money has been channelled into far too many projects. Quite a lot of people will die before seeing their pet project actually work and this, along with doubts about the choice of prototype, is the reason for my scepticism.

As for this particular project I can only recommend study of E.S. Cox's books regarding the mechanical travails endured by L.N.W.R. locomotives.

 

I think new builds of lost pre1923 era locomotives is a much more worthwhile exercise than yet another4-6-0 from the 1930's.

There really isn't much pregrouping express locomotives out there from the 20th century, pity considering many of the 4-6-0's of the 1930's are enlarged designs of these 4-4-0's and others.

 

A thought - if your after a working LNWR 4-4-0, why not ask the NRM, if they would be willing, and how much it would cost if so, to overhaul Hardwicke ?, they could be swayed more if the money was coming from an appeal or private hands rather than themselves.

 

Erm... because it's not a 4-4-0? Just a thought...

Tom

 

Looks an excellent project that's been well thought out and has something going for it. Looking forward to seeing more about it - will it be a membership scheme (annual fee) or a convenantor style contributions like 60163?

 

Don't know quite how I forgot that!.

 

It'd be great to see Hardwicke steam again (My personal preference would be for the Midland Spinner of course!) but part of the motivation behind this project is that the last three 20th century LNWR express engines - a large-boilered Claughton, a Precursor and a Prince of Wales class narrowly escaped preservation in 1949. They were slated for preservation but regrettably it was not to be. The George the Fifth class were improved Precursors, not least with superheating and if a new-build were constructed it would be singularly represent a 20th century L&NWR express type.

 

Hi Neil. I'm not up on all the particulars (just a messenger ) but the intention is to progress with Convenantors, much like Tornado. If I hear more from Paul, Bruce and co I'll post something here. Regrettably, I won't be able to make it to Railfest but the official kickoff is the stall there where they'll begin the subscription and single donation drive, and of course answer all queries.

 

Agreed, pregrouping express types are fairly thin on the ground, given that they were superseded by 4-6-0's and Pacifics in the 1920's and 30's. Of course there are a few pregrouping expresses either underway or promised - the LBSC H2 Atlantic, the GCR 567, the Claud Hamilton and this. Sadly the LNWR fared badly in preservation despite it's preeminence before 1923 largely as people know, due to Midland practice being adopted in the LMS (although the Midland fared little better in preservation). Bruce has a nice article on the LNWR express classes, which he wrote some time ago for Heritage Railway Magazine (a link can be found on the trust's website), outlining the exploits of the George the Fifth class under the LMS - though officially superseded, standing in for Royal Scots on Euston-bound expresses:

Bill Broadbent once wrote of his experiences of 'Ptarmigan' in 1928:

"It was a grey afternoon in 1928 and my raconteur sat on the precarious perch provided by Bowen Cooke for drivers of his super-heated 4-4-0s. Ptarmigan, not yet committed to the excursion siding at Llandudno Junction, stood alongside the horse dock on Crewe station pilot duties.

As he saw the loco arranger crossing the tracks towards him he looked at his watch and guessed half the situation when it told him that the up ‘Scot’ was ten minutes late. The remainder was soon revealed - 6104 was limping in with a middle cylinder bye-pass valve failure, and seven minutes later Ptarmigan was running back on to the stationary train at Crewe North box home signal.

Train tare weight was 420 tons, quite a respectable load in itself, but, according to head office instructions, as 6104's wheels would still circulate she must not be taken off the train, so, twenty-two minutes late, the ‘Precursor’ shouldered her load of 550 tons and sent the sparks so high climbing Whitmore that they came down cold. The run must have been stirring indeed: twenty-four late at Whitmore, twenty-two at Stafford, fifteen at Rugby and nine at Watford. With a slight check outside Euston the ‘Royal Scot’ drew in eight down.

What amazing feats of prowess those ‘Wessies’ could achieve. With these nostalgic thoughts of a colourful era I looked idly over to the horse dock, and saw a ‘Midland 2' nosing up to the buffer stop - ah well, they don't fit bye-pass valves nowadays."

 

Thanks Sidmouth. I've decided to put my money where my mouth is on this one as well as help with some of the promotion. I'm a freelance illustrator and the image linked to with the initial post was something that that Trust commissioned from me for promotional purposes. I understand that the artist, John Wigston (John WIGSTON - Artists Harbour Gallery) has completed a watercolour of a George the Fifth, which I believe (don't quote me on this) will be at their Railfest stall (which I should add will only be there from the 8th through to the 10th June), and which 25% of the proceeds of its sale will go towards this new-build.

 

Well Derek might object to being called old. Everything you say is entirely reasonable Paul - the directors acknowledge their age - their love of the L&NWR stems from seeing the last remaining express engines as boys in the dying days of the LMS. Of course, I consider them friends and of course wish them a long life but they acknowledge it's 'now or never' given that they've been discussing this for a number of years. They also acknowledge the need for a diverse range of ages to be on board for this project. Everyone involved acknowledges that it won't be easy, that there's a long road ahead with many potential pitfalls but they've estalbished or have had good connections and have received sound and invaluable advice from key-players in both the preservation and new-build fraternities. The very suggestion for the George the Fifth came from Ted Talbot and Roger Bell of Princess Elizabeth fame.

Of course, nothing is certain and these early days in difficult economic times will be particularly challenging. I've made a donation, both of money and personal time and I intend to become a convenantor fully aware that the engine may never see the light of day. It would be ridiculous not to acknowledge that this is a difficult (though not impossible) task. However for me, not to diminish the efforts of other groups but the prospect of a representative of this class coming to life once more excites me greatly and if in a decade or so I get to witness a George the Fifth pulling a line of carriages I can say that I helped in some small way to bring it to fruition.

 

I will add that while this will be a new representative of the class there will be modifications taking into account modern technical developments and techniques. As to acknowledging the shortcomings of the original locomotives, following the visit to the NRM last year Paul and Ray outlined the following:

"Thedrawings (studied at the NRM) were selected to give a broad picture from general drawingsto those for components. Particular attention was given to reportedproblem areas with the original design, notably the frames, bearingsand the piston valves. Drawing 18116 (24/310) showed stiffeningplates for the frames (which conflicts with O S Nock’s statement onp.69 of ‘The LNWR Precursor Family’ that the frames wereidentical with those used for the Precursors). Drawing 18903 ‘detailof big end for Cooper’s Patent Roller Bearing’ for the Experimentclass was fascinating and it would be interesting if anybody canthrow light on what actually happened in this connection. On thepiston valves there was a drawing from 1914 (19562) relating toimprovements and a further later drawing showed the improvementsapplied to the piston valves in the Claughtons. We also studieddrawings re the lubrication arrangements and in particular theWakefield and Trusty mechanical lubricators. All in all this initialexploration into the quarry of drawings produced a huge amount ofintense and constructive discussion."

I understand that the improvements will not be intrusive or immediately visible. As soon as I have more information on what is planned, I'll post it here. Of course Paul. Bruce and Derek should be able to answer such questions at Railfest.

Notwithstanding I will add that the, " 'George the Fifth Class' steam locomotives were introduced in 1910 by the London and North Western Railway to cover the most arduous express passenger duties within its network which emanating from Euston embraced Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle and Holyhead. The design was based on that of the 'Precursor' class, a classic Edwardian locomotive but featuring high temperature superheat, piston valves and improved steam circuit. High temperature superheat (obtained via the large Schmidt superheater) was arguably the principal development in steam locomotive design in the twentieth century. It reduced fuel consumption by around 25% and by permitting more effective use of the steam produced it enabled high power outputs to be more easily sustained for long periods (on trial the initial locomotive, named 'George the Fifth' was able to demonstrate, for example, the ability to sustain an average speed in excess of a mile per minute from Euston to Crewe). The arrangement also permitted high efficiency to be achieved with modest boiler pressures and hence moderate boiler maintenance costs. Such was the efficiency of the locomotive that in terms of power to weight ratio the design for these routes was never equalled in the steam era and the company deservedly acquired the accolades of being 'right time' and 'The Premier Line'."

 

I think you have answered various questions, about project management that other Facebook based projects don't seem to have considered properly.

The design itself. It's too small for mainline use, but that's not a problem if you don't plan to go mainline. So it seems only suitable for preserved lines. It's a passenger engine and won't therefore run particularly efficiently at 25mph as its drivers are too big. But apart from that it's not particularly big so should be relatively economical on coal. There's not much nostalgic appeal since there are few who are old enough to remember them properly and those that do are not going to get any younger.

Given that it's only suitable for preserved lines, there is one question. This question and its answer is central to other new build projects that are actually going somewhere - LMS Baby Scot, GWR Grange, GER F5, GCR Class 2, BR std 3 tank.

Where?
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You need somewhere to be based, a place to run one it's finished. Somewhere where the railway with its membership organisation can support you, put regular updates in the magazine, provide volunteers, workshop, etc. It can visit other lines of course, but it needs a home. Ideally that should be an ex-LNWR line or in or near LNWR territory as this maintains the heritage link. You then need to go and pitch your engine to their management, like Dragons den and reach some kind of agreement.

So what are the options?

• Nene Valley (ex-LNWR line), but not really in "LNWR territory".
• Lakeside & Haverthwaite, right area but a bit out of the way.
• Churnet Valley (sort of LNWR territory, but I think it's going to be too small for their grades)
• Llangollen - not LNWR line and I can't see them supporting another new build at the moment.
• ELR - (ex-L&YR) possible.
• Northampton and Lamport - too small (at the moment at least?)
• There may be other possibilities that I've missed.

Do you have a home, are you in negotitations? I think this is a key point and you won't get anywhere until you've actually sorted this out.