If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Island Line under threat

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Shaggy, Jul 24, 2015.

  1. stephenvane

    stephenvane Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    398
    Previous reports I’ve read indicated that the intention was to retain the third rail, and only use the battery capability to Ventnor and Newport if these extensions ever did happen.

    I guess we’ll have to wait a month or two and see what plans are confirmed.
     
  2. toplight

    toplight Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Swindon, England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I am always a bit suspicious when it comes to railways and governments in general when they say 'life expired'. It may well be that it genuinely is, (I don't know), but on the other hand it may be that it gets used as an excuse to demolish stuff.

    I remember reading in all the railway magazines in the 198os about BR saying Ribblehead viaduct was life expired and using it to try and justify closing the Settle Carlisle line. There was even one article I remember that showed some artist impressions of possible new modern concrete viaducts to totally replace it and how each one would cost £xxx millions (i.e, too much)

    After the potential closure was stopped in 1989, surprise surprise, it was just deliberate lack of maintenance and the viaduct is still in regular use and is 'okay' now ! . I am sure it will still be in use 50 years into the future.

    So "Life expired" can be code for "We want to get rid of it"
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    Daddsie71b, jnc and Bluenosejohn like this.
  3. JayDee

    JayDee Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    270
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swadlincote
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I suspect kit last put in in the 60s plus salt air probably means it is life expired and not any nefarious purpose. There probably was or is a tipping point but all that would happen for the island line is another cascading of second hand, half worn kit again.

    Sadly the line is rather expensive for what it is and the islands railways always have been. Hence it's been a Cascade area for a good century or more for it's various owners.
     
    paulhitch likes this.
  4. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Can they at least paint the 230s in that fetching London Transport red please?
     
  5. mikechant

    mikechant New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    165
    Assuming this is in response to my "Or just use standard 3rd rail but only energise it when a train is over it?" the answer is yes, I understand based on posts in another forum that some European tram systems instead of overhead wires use a ground-based contact rail which is only energised when the tram is over it, and this is considered safe enough to have on street-running sections.
    But what I was thinking about was simpler, just have 3rd rail in the terminus stations and it could even be energised manually by the driver from a key operated box on the platform (if you want to keep it low tech and reliable). This may seem a bit of a strange way to charge the batteries but it could be cheaper because it uses tried and tested existing, standard technology to make the charging connection.
     
    longdogs likes this.
  6. Nick C

    Nick C New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    147
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hampshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Or just link it to the track circuit - when the circuit is occupied, a relay is activated and the third rail energised...
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    5,894
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There might be another reason why 230's are the favoured option, what else is there? that will be available in say 18 months to two year time that will fit? that won't be needed more elsewhere already 319's are being considered for conversion to "Last mile" battery units to enable them to operate on non electrified sections of line, and as the Island line is self contained its ideal for the battery 230 set up, as long as the units have sufficient acceleration to match the timetabled requirement of Island line service , I wonder if the requirement will include better disabled access and some kind of internal ramp that the wheelchair user can activate so they can get from unit to platform if the station is unstaffed ,or no trained member of staff is available like a folding section of floor that if needed can extend and drop to form a ramp, as there will always be a gap between coach door and platform?
     
  8. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    219
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think I have said this before, but you can build a hump on the platform to get the same height. Not quite sure how this works at Esplanade on the tight curve but would work elsewhere
     
  9. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    5,894
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    isn't Esplanade going to be re built at some time to enable direct access to the hovercraft ? if that's so, then along with single track layout the platform could be altered when its rebuilt, if the permanent way is upgraded at the same time, the old ballast will need removing , so the track could be lowered in the platforms, that will go some way to increasing the height , rail to platform and I dare say, modern platform edging and topping will be needed anyway so I would expect a lot of ongoing works in the winter/ spring period and at nights, that's assuming the line gets the full upgrade.
     
  10. stephenvane

    stephenvane Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    398
    Also according to the reports, class 230s have blocks fitted to raise their height to normal mainline levels. Any 230s ordered for the IOW would apparently have these blocks omitted. So there may not be much of an issue with platform heights.
     
    SilentHunter86 likes this.
  11. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    1,334
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Their is no problem with platform heights as far as I am aware, lowering the track at Esplanade would be somewhat difficult as half the platform on the pier.
     
  12. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    5,894
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I should have made it clearer,Pier head , Esplanade will be rebuilt with new platform faces and increased height, the others possibly by putting the track in the platforms back down to steam era level isn't there going to be a problem, with tube stock height platforms, as the surface stock doors are going to leave a step down onto the platform, and I'm not sure if that's even considered safe now?
     
  13. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    1,334
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I am sure that even a modern franchise holder will have looked at platform heights and included any modifications into their proposal to the D of T.
     
    myford and paulhitch like this.
  14. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,634
    Likes Received:
    328
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    They'll surely need raising - 'Sub Surface' D78s were built for conventional height platforms unlike 'Deep Tube' stock currently used on the Island (1100mm floor height vs 750mm-ish).

    I gather 230s are actually being raised due to their width - what helps minimise the platform gap on the Underground could cause gauging issues on the national network, so they've been lifted slightly.

    [​IMG]
    1973 and D78 Stock at Stamford Brook
    by TC378, on Flickr
     
  15. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,634
    Likes Received:
    328
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    I'm not sure that's possible - Smallbrook and Lake were built for tube stock, and Brading and Sandown appear little (if any) changed from IWR days having retained pre-grouping style low platforms.

    [​IMG]
    27_Sandown Station
    by WotaWally, on Flickr

    [​IMG]
    Fishbourne at Shanklin (pjs,0658)
    by geoff7918, on Flickr
     
  16. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    664
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There is no real safety risk from a having to step down from a train onto the platform, nor step up onto the train (assuming the stepping distance is not excessive). Consequently there is absolutely nothing in law / disability legislation that mandates level boarding must be provided throughout the entire length of the platform regardless of how new the trains or station might be.

    What the law does require is that a certain level of provision must be made for persons of reduced mobility - and that includes parents with pushchairs, the elderly,etc just as much as those with a specific disability.

    Fortunately there is a very cost effective solution - called the 'Harrington Hump' after the station where it was trailed that involves raising only a tiny part of the platform adjacent to the place where the disabled accommodation will be on the train when it stops. Persons of reduced mobility are therefore catered for without having to raise the entire platform or lower the trackbed.
     
    jnc and gwalkeriow like this.
  17. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    664
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ribblehead viaduct was an interesting case.

    While its true decades of neglect hadn't helped, when repair works were started they found the original contractors who built it for the Midland Railway were a right bunch of cowboys. The scaffolding used to build it had just been sawn away (as opposed to being removed and the holes filled with masonry) when the building work was completed. Over time the wood rooted away allowing water to easily enter the structure. Similarly the tar that was laid over the top to supposedly waterproof the deck hadn't been poured hot enough with the result that it was full of holes / cracks that once again allowed water to enter and damage the structure. Finally most of the piers were simply filled with rubble rather than also have cement / lime mortor added to bind it together as was customary for such structures at the time.

    Of course given that:- (1) The Midland Railway only went and got parliamentary authority to build the line to force the LNWR to offer better terms for the conveyance of Midland trains from Ingledon to Scotland via the WCML
    and (2) When a satisfactory deal was made with the LNWR the Midland went back to parliament with a bill to cancel the previously passed one authorising construction of the S&C, then it is perhaps not surprising that the standard of constriction was so poor.

    As such BRs description of 'life expired' wasn't actually that far from the truth and although refurbishment was cheaper than a new build, it was still a pretty expensive undertaking.
     
    Monkey Magic, jnc, gwalkeriow and 2 others like this.
  18. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    4,297
    Likes Received:
    2,605
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good to know Cowboy Builders are not a modern phenomena
     
    SilentHunter86 likes this.
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    15,844
    Likes Received:
    22,219
    Location:
    21C102
    Indeed not - see also Warton & Warden, operating out of a white cart and a mobile telegraph number as purveyor of dodgy tunnels in the Hastings area while-u-wait...

    (Which in typical SER style, wound up in court with both sides suing the other...)

    Tom
     
    Forestpines likes this.
  20. Shaggy

    Shaggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    817
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

Share This Page