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Homes needed for 4cig and 4vop

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by SR.Keoghoe, Jun 26, 2016.

  1. SR.Keoghoe

    SR.Keoghoe New Member

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    If you thought finding a home for a 4CEP or 3 MLVs was bad enough 4-CIG 1399 and 4-VOP 3905 need a new home now. The lease with the Dartmoor Railway will run out soon and they need a new home, the group did see this and were planning a move. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=640190256156526&id=135004650008425

    This ultimately means that heritage lines in the South or close to the railways they were based on have to take on 3 4 car units and 3 motor vans.
     
  2. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    have to? can't see that working out
     
  3. SR.Keoghoe

    SR.Keoghoe New Member

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    It's not a surprise that heritage railways refuse to take on EMU sets, and it's always the same points that are repeated time and time again. Some argue that they should take them on however it's more of a hassle for the railway to operate that unit if they don't have the suitable diesel to push it. I will not be surprised if more units are scrapped in the future as leases run out. For these units it will be hard keeping both units together as there are a lot of vehicles. The Electric Railway Museum could close due to a new vehicle manufacturing plant being built on the site. Finmere station could also close permanently due to HS2.

    I may sound negative above but there are some good projects going on with small two car units and single Driving carriages from sets, namely the 4-DD project in Kent and the project commuter with 2-Hap 4308. Then there is the Brighton Belle project.
     
  4. Captain Fantastic

    Captain Fantastic New Member

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    Well you could just use them as loco hauled air braked MK1's there are a few railways in the south west that arnt overwhelmed with them, I'm just thinking of bigging that instead of being EMU's , the WSR only has one rake of dual braked coaches and I think I'm right in saying only One dual braked brake coach (bit of a weak link there) although they do have a support coach but I don't know if that is usable
     
  5. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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    BIB - why would it need any more? Most if not all of its locos are vacuum and any incoming railtour locos could use the air braked set you mention above. I don't see the need...
    (Not to mention storage and maintenance requirements)


    Keith
     
  6. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    As well as the air brake problems they are electric heating only, so they would have to be converted to steam heating and to make any real use for them vac brake as well if possible, otherwise just junk filling up sidings.
     
  7. Captain Fantastic

    Captain Fantastic New Member

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    Well the point about the air brakes is nullified as the 33/47 and the 52 all have air brakes, however the heating is a prob although they can be modified to be heated by a ETH fitted loco the 33's and the 47 have that although i would have to admit i dont know if its serviceable, as the second tier of ex BR diesels comes into preservation and they are only fitted with air brakes it would be a sensible idea to have more than one rake that can be used with those locos, and please bear in mind the massive sum of monies involved in the overhaul of MK1's they currently have, as far as i know the railway only has a small number of coaches left that arnt in traffic and if they do need any more unless there is a yard i dont know about full of spare Mk1's waiting for a home where is the new stock going to come from? there are the charter rakes still in use on the mainline but how much longer they will be needed in that role for is anyone's guess, and when they do come up for sale lord knows what they will want for them.
    As it stand now there are 8 MK 1 style coaches that are already in a condition ready for use after a fashion and in need of a home, they wouldn't be of any use for the steam locos except mybee Kinlett i THINK that has air brakes one end but the railway should be thinking about the next ten years not just the next ten months, i was told a story a while ago about a railway that was offered MK2a coaches,in a runable condition some with new battery sets straight off the mainline by a division of BR for a pound a coach and they turned them down because of the heating issue, in the end they just went to the cutters. What price for a rake of them now
     
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  8. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Could it be that the reason you are having difficulty finding a home is because no one considers them worth saving?
     
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  9. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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    So what you'll end up with is a rake of 'carriages' that can only work with the 33/47/52 and may or may not have a working heating system.
    [sarcasm on] I can't see why railways aren't climbing over each other to take on these units [/sarcasm off]

    Does the WSR actually need additional rolling stock? They have the heritage train project for the future that will provide at least one extra rake - maybe they don't actually need any more carriages at the minute, and maybe they've done some pre-planning and worked out that with the heritage train they won't need any more in the future either. Have you actually asked the WSR? You seem determined to foist these units on them - why? Oh, and where are the WSR supposed to store these extra units?


    Keith
     
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  10. richards

    richards Well-Known Member

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    There is also the issue of the railway's relationship with the vehicle owners - do you they have similar ideas on availability, maintenance, hiring fees etc?
     
  11. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Member

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    Third rail stock is worth saving, it's just what you do with it afterwards...
     
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  12. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    Unless they are converted to duel heating and brakes, they wont be able to be used in day to day trains which will be in most cases mainly steam hauled. So if the owner converts them to steam loco hauled coaches with all the electric gubbins taken out to reduce the weight, and the power cars mounted on standard coach bogies, they will most likely find a home on a heritage railway as they will be of use to them.
     
  13. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    I think as far as EMUs go, there is little place at a preserved railway for them and a better approach would be the NRMs in restoring one vehicle as an example of the whole. (3 SUB unit) . An entire 4 coach unit has nothing remarkable about it as far as heritage goes and is not really very usable. A 4TC unit and a 33/1 would represent that era fairly well and be more usable and a 2 EPB with a MLV would cover the era before that. BIL COR BEL and SUB are represented, is there any need to save much more to tell the Southern Electric story?
     
  14. 33021

    33021 New Member

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    The DC stock is worth saving, the CEP, CIG, and VEPs are a key part of 50 years of heritage to hundreds of thousands of people who used them. The challenge is that there is no where set up to keep an example of each, plus the earlier SUB, EPB, HAPs etc.

    It almost needs an NRM or preservation outpost at a site in the South, maybe part of Chart Leacon, or St Leonards to let the next generation see this aspect of history, otherwise the common sights such as the real high density Southern units (not class 700s) but VEPS with 3+2 seating, innovative luggage racks built above the seats, and 72 doors in total per 4 car will be lost forever.

    The preservation movement has managed to preserve an APT, Class 81,82,83,85,86 and 89, Plus 501,502,503,504, 303, 306,309 not without challenges, but they still remain for the next generation.
     
  15. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    such a scheme would not be sustainable....to Joe Public, they would all look the same if you could persuade him to visit. Interest amongst enthusiasts would be tiny too I'd wager. The only way forward really is for people like you 33021 wo have an interest in them to finance it yourself with your cash and labour. I can't see it making any progress without these. Piggy backing on to a steam line is never going to work, they have different priorites

    AN NRM outpost you say? well that's not going to happen for sure
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    4-VEP 3417 is already in preservation and well cared for. So not sure why you think VEPs would be lost forever, though the fact that one is preserved makes it less significant to preserve a second one, IMHO. Ultimately, there is only so much resource (cash, storage space, skilled people, enthusiasm) available.

    Tom
     
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  17. The NRM has a driving trailer from a 4VEP and it's perhaps notable that the only real reason that the 2HAP is having a makeover is down to a dedicated, well-organised bunch of Network SouthEast enthusiasts having approached the NRM with a well-considered, feasible plan to provide skills and voluntary labour to do much of the work. (The fact that the VEP driving trailer's most useful role in preservation seems to be as a storage facility for the HAP's seats while the work is done seems rather a sad irony).

    I would love to see more third rail EMUs preserved, but I agree with the previous posters. While in theory they could be regarded as a useful source of Mk1 coaching stock, in reality they are limited to use with diesel locos (which Mr & Mrs/Ms Vastmajorityofpunters aren't interested in) or mainline registered steam locos.

    Witness the 4CIG/BIG at the GCR, which was restored and in use with 33116 but still went for scrap and the 3CIG at the EOR which is for sale.

    Then there's the 4TC for the Swanage Railway - which does have ETH with loco jumpers, is entirely appropriate for the line and there's a 33/1 ready to shove it around - but it's currently at the MRC, seemingly struggling to attract the necessary interest and funding for its restoration.

    By the way, Tom - I wish 3417's minions would restore its number to 7717, which is more appropriate for the livery!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2016
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  18. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    with you on 7717
     
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  19. SR.Keoghoe

    SR.Keoghoe New Member

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    It's also to note that 4-VOP 3905 does not have a MBSO, as it is used as a stores vehicle for the Brighton Belle, No.62266. Also with the Brighton Belle is another 4-VOP unit, 3918 but I think that has been scrapped for spares.
    The Mizens Railway has a DTC from unit 3568 which is cared for quite well.
    Can anyone tell me the difference between a VEP and a VOP as I have no clue?
     
  20. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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    A VEP has an e
    A VOP has an o?

    :D

    Nick
     

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