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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    That is indeed beautiful.
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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  4. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Simon, I've only picked out part of your posting in that your 93% availability referred to in the 4th paragraph does give a false impression. According to Yeadon's Register Volume 3, 'Thane of Fife' was in works during 1946:-

    Cowlairs. 9-25/4/46. = 16 days L

    Inverurie. 22-23/5/46 = 2 days L

    Doncaster 13/6 - 19/10/46 = 129 days G

    Doncaster 23/10 - 2/11/46 = 11 days NC

    Cowlairs 5/12/46 = 1 day. Weighing
    ______________

    Total = 159 days out of action.

    Even without throwing in light engine movements and shed days for boiler washout and other repairs to these days out of action, any talk of 93% availability over the whole of 1946 is an impossibility. This leaves one asking was this figure of 93% really achievable in the remaining 206 days - assuming that 1946 wasn't a leap year.

    I'm not saying that ET 'massaged' the figures, but someone else may have done..........
     
  5. PoleStar

    PoleStar New Member

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    l

    Don't read too much into this. I'm sure it happened, and Thompson's hands-on involvement is significant, but in pre-computer days it was normal practice in most if not all loco drawing offices to mock-up valve gears in this way.
     
  6. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    What do the "L"s, "G" and "NC" mean?
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Guessing the L = Light repair and G = General repair but haven't a clue about NC.
     
  8. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Non-classified repair perhaps?

    I haven’t followed this closely but do the availability percentages exclude time in works? If so, why?
     
  9. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think there was a discussion of the meaning of the 93% --- like it's available 93% of the time it's not in the works or at the shed for washouts etc and there was something about Sundays not counting.

    I've been re-reading Townend East Coast Pacifics at Work. A very good read. One point he makes is that once the boiler on 2002 was scrapped in July 1946, there was no spare boiler for the class : ' As boilers generally require longer periods for repair than locomotives, the absence of a spare boiler resulted in four of the A2/2s spending many months in shops (up to ten months in one case) during 1946/7 waiting for a boiler'. An example of the cost penalties of small non-standard classes.

    He also has some barbed comments on the standard of repair work at Cowlairs at that time.
     
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  10. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Correct for L, G, and NC.
     
  11. The Citadel

    The Citadel New Member

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    Are there any driver or fireman memoirs of working the P2s and the rebuilds over the Aberdeen road in existence?
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    My apologies for not responding sooner - I have been very busy at work and today is even busier. Eightpot, I'll respond here and also by DM as I'll be happy to share a screenshot with you regarding what I am working from with those figures.

    The 93% availability is based on a formula we derived in this thread a few months back to work out how much a locomotive class (or locomotive, if singular) was actually available for a given year where the number of days are known for repairs/washouts/etc.

    It's fascinating stuff to delve into and tells a very different story to that known where the Thompson Pacifics are concerned.

    However I will say - I trust the 93% figure, given that I am working from the original source data of the records the LNER collated on their locomotive fleet. There are very, very few mistakes or omissions throughout and with excel I am able to identify any issues quite quickly.

    (but you are all more than welcome to check my working - I would not dream of thinking myself infallible!)
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    If you look on the previous page Miff you will find an image from me giving the whole data I am working from. It does not exclude time in works, it very much includes it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It's the very fact that Thompson was hands on involved that is significant. There's little similar to this, bar the well known (and rather lovely) story of Sir Nigel Gresley mocking up the corridor tender layout with chairs at his home. Truly, it's these human interactions that are significant. It proves that Thompson and Gresley were not just men at the top pushing pens.
     
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  15. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Gresley is also reported by a draughtsman later transferred to Derby in BR days as liking to sit and discuss details with drawing office staff well past going home time - I can see that being a mixed blessing!
     
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  16. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Can I ask whether you disagree with Yeadon's data (e.g. by comparison with the record card for 60505)? The 129 days does seem very long.
     
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I would prefer not to answer at this time until I’ve checked my references and copies of the same source material.

    There may be a third angle: we are both correct, but the statistics for the engine cards and the yearly days/mileages are dated differently (I.e. engine card is calendar year, mileage figures isn’t or vice versa).

    I’m keeping an open mind.
     
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  18. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I guess it all boils down to what one means by 'Availability', and the starting point for it. One could say that if the loco is sitting there, in steam and ready to go at a moments notice for only 7% of the time, the time it is actually in use (available) at 93% is a pretty good figure, this taking into account light engine movement to couple on to, and uncouple from trains.

    However, if time for things like boiler washouts and light repairs occupying one whole day are taken into account, and boiler washouts taking place at 10-day intervals (possibly for such types of locos more often, but we'll let that pass), plus the standing around time as above, this would push the figure down into the 80+% mark.

    On the other hand, Bill Harvey in his book (not immediately to hand at the moment) recounts of a 'Britannia' coming on shed at Norwich very late in the evening, being cooled down and washed out overnight, boxed up and in steam again to work a train departing as late as 23.59 hrs being legitimately described as having been 'at work' that day. If one could keep that up consistently, one could claim 100% (or better) availability!
     
  19. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks - I suppose I’ll have to read it now <Grin> I think I may have been confused by someone else’s response.
     
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  20. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    You may well be right as far as LNER matters go, it's outside my area of particular interest.
    But it's not at all true to say that Coleman gets ignored or glossed over in LMS history. All serious books on LMS locomotive matters have been perfectly clear about Coleman's role (and his predecessor under Fowler). And neither Stanier or Fowler made any pretence of doing the design as such themselves: they were the senior engineer responsible for a team, not the sole designer, they directed and signed off others' work.
    On the Princess Coronation pacifics, Stanier as far as I know never made any claim to have done the design, no one could possibly have thought he had done, he was in India at the time. He was, however, responsible for it, and approved it when he got home and saw it. That's what the job of CME was, on the LMS at least.
    But I think all this has always been perfectly clear in anything but the most cursory histories of LMS locomotives.
    The person on the LMS who gets an undeservedly bad press is perhaps Fowler, although again this is only normally in more superficial treatments. In my view Anderson's villification is also somewhat overdone and easy in hindsight.
     
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